To not want to be the minority where I live?

[Charlottehines]

It really saddens me that in parks and soft plays with my children, that I am in the minority and my children can't play with other children there as they all play together and obviously can't speak English.
I'm in no way racist, my husband is of mixed origin but I do find it incredibly sad that my children are growing up the minority especially when these other groups make no effort to integrate with other mums or the children.
Am I completely unreasonable to feel sad about this?

IHaveAFithSense, maybe a grasp of logic isnt your strong point, but I specifically qualified that statement by saying it was true in terms of AGGREGATE TRENDS.

Of course people of different races can share the same religion or ideology. My point was that ON AVERAGE, immigrants vary from the incumbent population on all of the aforementioned characteristics. Any anecdotes you can point no more disprove my claim than a tall woman disproves the claim that men are taller than women on average.

And again, calling me racist is just pathetic name calling. As yet, you havent identified a single claim I have made and explained why it is wrong.

And I also agree with LeftWing, it is bonkers to suggest anybody has the right to freedom of being offended.... which is basically your interpretation of freedom of fear (although I still cannot see this an any list of HR articles, but I am genuinely interested to learn if you can link it please).

here you go

I have also just seem your last sentence.

Furthermore being on the wrong end of it is often more frustrating than anything.

That says it all really.

Where have you suddenly appeared from, leftwingechochamber? Are you being sent over by UKIP or the BNP?

IHaveAfifthSense I am not now or would I ever suggest any type of racism is OK.

"It's easy to say that you wouldn't fear any of those things when you are not the one who is experiencing it."
You make the assumption I have never experienced this type of subtle racism, why?

Interesting. Going from, freedom from fear is just a made up thing, people like you always make human rights up, to qualifying the human right as stated.

Did calling you an idiot make you frightened? I apologise unreservedly for any fear I might have caused you. I will happily go and hand myself in. I have no wish to cause distress to anyone, regardless of their beliefs or values.

The problem with your assertion that this thread isn't in any way racist is that (a) I know the area the OP is talking about very well, she isn't in a minority, nor would her children be in any school in the area (b) the OP has admitted that she has probably overreacted (c) other people have come and hijacked the thread, turning it into an 'I'm not racist, but...' debate. I have also stated categorically that I don't believe this thread would cause fear or alarm.

Have you free speech. Away you go. However, as I stated, really clearly before, be aware of the consequences of your words.

Leftwing as far as I can see, you haven't actually made any claims other than citing a study that you have found and chosen to select parts that suit what you are trying to say. All you have done is whinge about how diverse your country has become.

As for your study, I don't know it nor can I be arsed to read it. However, I don't doubt that the part that you have quoted is true. Those issues do arise for ethnic minorities because they often don't trust people in power. There are countless reasons for that, but right now I do not have the time or energy to explain it to someone who clearly a does not give two shits about how people from minorities may feel. If they don't like it they should bloody well leave your country, right?

longtime if you had experienced it, you would know that it is a little more than "frustrating". Stubbing your toe is frustrating. Missing a bus is frustrating. Not being able to get your point across on an online discussion board is frustrating. Being on the receiving end of racism is not.

Captain Chaos, if you actually read the document you would see there is indeed no such right as the freedom from fear. Not one of the 30 article mentions anything that even remotely approximates to this.

All it said is that freedom from fear, and in context it is specifically the fear of a lawless or tyrannical government, is an ASPIRATION. Not that freedom from fear and alarm, which you extend to include "racist" opinions is a human right. Indeed, the the very same sentence where it mentions freedom from free as an aspiration it mentions freedom of expression, without any qualification.

So yes, you did just invent some bullshit right as an excuse to curtail something specifically protected in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and then had the audacity to claim this infringement is actually mandated in that same document, by selective quoting.

And OMG, look at the thinly veiled threat at the end of your post "be aware of the consequences". Talk about causing distress and alarm.

And I notice captchaos, you STILL are dodging my point that what is intimidating is subjective, and thus your logic can be used to ban anything. I gave a list of things which cause some people distress and alarm: horror films, clows, congregations of young people, air planes. Anyone could name hundreds more. Do you want all of these things banned? And if not, how does your invented right to freedom from fear logically extend to "racism" but not to all of the above?

Also, leftwing, it appears to be you who struggles to grasp basic logic. If you can't understand that most people manage to get on perfectly fine with one another when living in the same country, despite any 'cultural differences', it says a lot about your understanding of human nature. You rebuff anecdotes because you don't want them to exist. I'm not talking about one person who is able to get on with different races and cultures without issue, I'm talking about every single person that I know.perhaps if I put it into statistics and call it a study you might believe it a bit more.

IHaveAFifthSense
I suggest you are being discriminatory in your own thinking here. You are making assumptions when you have no knowledge of me or my background and you have assumed I cannot have experienced the subtle racism I have talked about, as otherwise I would hold the same opinion on it as you.... Wrong.

I have been on the end of this subtle type of racism many times. Although I struggle to define it as racism because there is often no solid evidence of discrimination on the basis of race, it is usually just a feeling. And from my perspective I do not feel fear, perhaps frustration is too mild but I can't ever recall feeling fear.

Again I am not talking about groups of thugs chasing you down the road in white hood or overt racist abuse (of which I can thankfully count on one hand the number of times I have experienced it).

IHaveAFithSense, just to reply to the charge that I havent made any other claims other than to link the study, if that is true, then what exactly have we been talking about? Oh yes, my CLAIM that people generally prefer those like themselves. Which unless I am mistaken, is a claim other than linking the study, isnt it? Indeed, if you read my first post, you will see quite a lot of other claims.

Longtime I do apologise, in that case. Your blasé attitude towards it made me jump to conclusions and for that I apologise. However I do suggest that, if you have been on the receiving end, that you have a think about how significant the implications can be.

IHFS, I dont "rebuff" anecdotes because I dont want them to exist. I ignore them because they simply arent relevant. We are talking about demographics here. Demographics can only be discussed in terms of aggregate trends. The moments you start talking about anecdotes, you arent talking about demographics, you are talking about individuals. As I say, this is like trying to disprove the claim that men are generally taller than women by pointing to a tall woman.

I have never claimed that people cannot get along with people from different backgrounds. My point is that diversity is socially divisive, and people get along less well on AVERAGE when communities are diverse.

Yes, people of different races and cultures can be friends. But in ethnically diverse communities, people, on AVERAGE, have fewer close friends and experience more tension and conflict, and a lower quality of life, even when controlling for all confounding variables.

There is nothing blase about my attitude towards it. I was simply saying I do not think it is meant to cause fear and alarm.

There is no point going round in circles here. All I can say is obviously our experiences and interpretation of those experiences differs. I think it is patronising to suggest I need to 'have a think' because my views do not match yours.

But what do you mean by "people like themselves"? If you can divide groups of people into categories of "like me" and "not like me," on what do you base the divide? Is skin colour the most significant element? Or language? Or age? Or educational background? Or common interests? Or shared sense of humour? While it may be true that people tend to fear the unknown, I can't honestly imagine actively wanting to live in a community of people exactly like me. It would be impossible anyway, unless you have a very restrictive definition of "like me."

in the short term, leftwing what you say is true.

in the short term, diverse communities generally have a higher level of the problems you mention.

the evidence of these short term problems was given yesterday in the Robert Putmam study you quoted via wikipedia.

Of course the full study by Robert Putnam (which I linked to earlier in the thread) concluded that, based on the evidence gathered, in the long term immigration, multiculturalism and diversity bring tangible, quantifiable and proven benefits to a community and a nation.

So the issue should be not to argue and try to pretend there are no problems, or to be so blinkered as to deny there are not overwhelming benefits from multiculturalism. The issue should be to identify the best ways to help achieve genuine integration in communities so that the short term problems do not become embedded.

useful

ElkTheory, yes, people can arbitrarily categories themselves in any number of ways. But I dont think it is unreasonable to say that there exist more socially divisive differences between recent immigrants, their descendants and the incumbent population than people of the same ethnic origins. Sure, there are things other than ethnicity that people can come into conflict over, but ethnic diversity significantly increases the problem beyond what it would otherwise be.

If you missed the link when I gave it earlier:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

Adoptmama, I appreciate that Putnam believes that in the long term diversity is desirable, but what evidence did he actually provide for this?

Lets be clear, the guy is not unbiased. He delayed publishing his paper based on the research for 6 years because he didnt like what the data indicated. I am open to arguments in favour of diversity if they can be buttressed by reason and evidence, but so far, that hasnt been provided.

yes but that wikipedia link does not accurately report the evidence based conclusions of Putnam. It only quotes - for deliberately selective reasons - the short term problems he identifies, not the long term benefits he identifies. It deliberately misrepresents his findings by implying that he believes diversity to be damaging. He has stated himself that he does not believe this, based on the evidence of his research. He has also filed court papers in cases which have sought to misrepresent his findings in this way, demonstrating the fact he feels very strongly about the wrongness of using his research in this way.

Where have you come from, leftwingechochamber? (Just in case you didn't hear me the first time)