To not want to be the minority where I live?

[Charlottehines]

It really saddens me that in parks and soft plays with my children, that I am in the minority and my children can't play with other children there as they all play together and obviously can't speak English.
I'm in no way racist, my husband is of mixed origin but I do find it incredibly sad that my children are growing up the minority especially when these other groups make no effort to integrate with other mums or the children.
Am I completely unreasonable to feel sad about this?

Freedom from fear is not a human right.

I love the way people just invent human rights at the drop of a hat justify denying people basic freedoms, like the freedom to express an opinion.

Given that what is intimidating is highly subjective, and different things worry different people, this can be used as an excuse to deny almost any kind of expression.

Also, what many regard as racist appears to be something as reasonable as wanting your child to attend a school where most children speak the native language. How does this "racist" view cause "fear and alarm" exactly?

Here, Caruthers, , , . . ; : , have some punctuation.

I live in East Lancashire. Towns like Blackburn and Burnley are segregated. It isn't good for either community and there have been numerous attempts to break down the barriers but they have largely failed. Burnley's re-organisation of its school system in the wake of the race riots has failed miserably. White flight is encouraged by asian families who will knock on doors and offer to buy houses.

Eastern European immigration is less of an issue up here.

Cosmopolitan multiculturalism doesn't exist here like it does in major cities. It is heartbreaking to realise that things haven't changed since I was at school, in fact with the advent of Islamic state schools here there is less opportunity for children to mix.

Arf at free speech including citing racist views. I mean, sure you can say what you like but if you infringe on another person's human rights, you are getting into hot water.

Dawn, your entire post made no substantive points at all. You just resorted to personal abuse.

"Oh, your such a dick and I am so much cleverer than you so I am not going to reply!"

Me pointing that out to you isnt saying nothing. Nor it is saying nothing to reiterate the points you ignored, namely that the majority of children at a school not speaking your child's language is a legitimate concern, and it is ridiculous to say you have free speech except when I say you dont.

And no, I have no other accounts on this site. But hey, why not resort to pointless speculation as an excuse not to reply rather than just reply? If you dont want to reply, thats absolutely fine, dont. But why be a twat about it?

DawnD, never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I know. I can't be arsed to be honest. I can't decide whether to call UKIP or BNP, I have the free speech to do so, although funnily enough the law prevents leftwing from using the language that he/she would far rather use, which of course is an attack on his/her freedoms, those he/she would like to exercise without any responsibilities.
Out of here now, better things to do.

Ihaveafithsense, there are several of pages of posts that have been written since I last posted yesterday. If yours was one of them, I havent read it. Anyway, you can just repeat your question without making silly insinuations that I was deliberately dodging your question.

Anyway, as to your question:

"Is your skin colour the only thing that you base your identity on? Or do you also prefer to be around women only (or men, if you are a man)? Do you prefer to be around people with the same hair colour, shoe size, taste in music, eye colour... as yourself?"

I will simply direct you to what I wrote in my very first post (which you have already read and responded to):

"By and large, people like to associate with those like themselves, be it class, race, religion, ideology, interests and so on. And immigrants do not differ simply in race, they differ in all of the above in terms of aggregate trends. "

So I clearly did not define similarity and identity solely in terms of skin colour.

And as important as your opinion of me doubtless is, I must confess, I dont honestly care if you think I am racist. Instead of name calling, why dont you take an argument of mine and explain why it is wrong or otherwise flawed? That I might actually care about.

Dawn, nice attempt to smear me, but I never said I wanted to use abusive language (which the laws dont prohibit in any case, and even if they did, the fact that a law exists doesnt mean its a good law). What I actually said was free speech should allow you to express ANY opinion or sentiment, not simply the ones you happen to approve of, because that isnt free speech. Thats no different to "free speech" under a dictatorship. You can say anything you like, except when you cant.

It's fascinating when people post racist views, insist on their right to do so, and then become outraged when other people point out that those views are racist. After all, the individuals pointing out the racism are simply exercising their own right to freedom of speech.

I think that some people know that being racist is wrong so they don't like that word applied to them. But they haven't quite worked out that in order not to be called racist, they have to actually change their opinions. It isn't enough just to declare oneself not racist.

As for the language issue, second language acquisition among children is a very different issue than it is for adults. Most young children can learn a second (third, fourth, etc.) language with ease. I always wonder whether people who express concerns about this issue actually speak a second language to any degree of proficiency.

Elk, there is nothing contradictory about A) Believing that free expression should extend to all views and opinions, not just those lefties approve of and B) Thinking it is a pathetic smear to call anyone racist for something as entirely defensible as wanting your child to attend a school where she can actually communicate with most of the children.

There would only be a contradiction of anyone claimed free speech should not extend to calling people racist. Who has exactly?

If you want to call me racist, I dont care. OK, you think I am racist, but can you actually explain why I am wrong?

Racism doesn't cause fear and alarm then?

Right ho.

I agree ElkTheory "I'm going to be overtly racist and then bite back at claims I am racist by citing my right to free speech."

We live in a very racially mixed area. Our children have always integrated fine and had friends in all communities. Classes at school are very mixed. Their friends come from all backgrounds. However it is certainly not easy to get used to being in an area where most people don't share your own values and culture in a range of ways. Only 11% of the British population are foreign born and most of the country does not have this as any kind of issue. What I don't want is white flight which has happened in some areas for decades. Ultimately people do integrate. We took in a lot of the French after 1066, plenty of jews in the 1500 or 1600s etc etc and now most of the time they are indistinguishable. A good few people have black genetic material up in the North East from when the Romans brought over black slaves to work on Hadrian's Wall. Over time people rightly mix which is actually good for the strength of our genes. However in the interim periods it can be difficult although we can learn a lot from others. I am pro immigration but I see on a daily basis the difficulties with being a minority in my own land.

Oh, and, just for info.

'Freedom from fear is one of the fundamental human rights' a direct quote taken from The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1941) which was adopted in 1948 by the UN General Assembly.

But I so totally made it up.

Of course I did.

You are aware that you're an idiot, aren't you leftwing?

CaptChaos
"Wrong! You are entitled to free speech as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's human rights. Freedom from fear is a human right. Racism is meant to cause fear and alarm."
Eh, Really, freedom of fear?

Freedom of speech is a human right though. And it is a good job too otherwise people like yourself would be restricting what others could say on the basis of your own personal/moral beliefs.

I think Leftwingechochamber makes a good point on page 18. Diversity is encouraged by so many here.... except when it comes to daring to voice a different opinion on a topic like this.

incidentally how does a discussion like this cause fear?

longtimelurking As I said, she can hold what beliefs she likes, she can state them plainly and loudly in the privacy of her own home, or in other people's homes if they share her views. What she can't do is spout those views in a public place. Race is a protected characteristic. Freedom from fear is a fundamental human right. Free speech also. However, where freedom of speech is likely to cause fear or discrimination, then it should be curtailed.

Have whatever views you like. Be free to speak them freely. Be aware of the consequences.

Oh dear.... I didn't at any time suggest that a discussion like this would cause fear, but nice try.

What I said was that racism is meant to cause fear and alarm. Or do you think that racism is meant to cause happiness and cuddles?

CaptChaos, I notice you didnt respond to what I actually said. What speech is deemed to be intimidating is entirely subjective, and so this can be used to justify any infringement of free expression.

Maybe I am scared by you calling me an idiot? Oh well, looks like its off to jail with you then. I'll leave it to you to turn yourself in.

And no, "racism" certainly not as it has been defined in this thread, does not cause intentional fear and alarm. A mother not wanting to send her child to a school where most children cant speak English intimidates who exactly?

As for the universal declaration of human rights, thats a notice cherry picked quote, but if you read the articles of the declaration, no where does it claim that there is a human right to not hear people express OPINIONS which may intimidate others.

www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Read for yourself. There are only 30 of them.

Fear in the context in which it was mentioned:

*"Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,"*

It is talking about not living in fear of your life at the hands of lawless and tyrannical government. It would be absurd to understand this as freedom from any possibility of distress or alarm. If that were the case, horror films would have to be banned, as would clowns, congregations of young people, air planes, or anything anywhere that anyone might find intimidating. As I said, basically everything.

Leftwing

"By and large, people like to associate with those like themselves, be it class, race, religion, ideology, interests and so on. And immigrants do not differ simply in race, they differ in all of the above in terms of aggregate trends."

So you don't believe that the things that you have listed can cross between cultures? I could give you a list consisting of hundreds, even thousands (more or less everyone that I have ever come across) that refute that idea, but you don't believe anecdotes to be good evidence so I won't waste my time.

I don't doubt that you care very little whether people think you are racist or not. At least your an obvious and honest racist rather than a 'I'm not racist but...' type I suppose. Every cloud and all that.

Dancingnancy I have just realised that I didn't respond to your post yesterday - thank you for apologising. It is nice to know that there are some people who are able to see when they are being offensive and correct themselves

captChaos It depends how you define racism really doesn't it? It we are talking about groups extremists meeting to have fights, like at certain NF or EDL meetings, then obviously that is designed to cause fear.

If we are talking about the more subtle racism that happens day to day then NO I do not think that is meant to cause fear and alarm deliberately. I think it often comes about from the unconscious biases in the way individuals categorise and stereotype others, combined with pure ignorance, rather than a desire to cause fear and alarm.

I think many people assume most racism is a conscious decision that people make, but in my experience that isn't the case, it is way more subtle and often times people don't realise it is taking place or they are doing it.

Furthermore being on the wrong end of it is often more frustrating than anything.

longtime Of course subtle racism causes fear and alarm. It is subtle racism that creates mistrust - a fear of not knowing how people will react to you. Whether they are going to blame you for any problems that may arise, whether they will employ you, whether their children will pick on yours because you are "different". It's easy to say that you wouldn't fear any of those things when you are not the one who is experiencing it.

Racism is racism. There is no "ok" type of racism. Whether it's subtle, obvious, or whether you realise it or not. Racism causes serious problems for those on the receiving end.