To not want to be the minority where I live?

[Charlottehines]

It really saddens me that in parks and soft plays with my children, that I am in the minority and my children can't play with other children there as they all play together and obviously can't speak English.
I'm in no way racist, my husband is of mixed origin but I do find it incredibly sad that my children are growing up the minority especially when these other groups make no effort to integrate with other mums or the children.
Am I completely unreasonable to feel sad about this?

Then what you did, whether you meant it or not, was racist.

You assumed children/parents of a different colour from you would behave in less welcoming way.

You judged that children of the same colour as mine would be less friendly. To me, that is personally offensive. It is also racist.

Who has been racist? It seems like you become racist my default if you support UKIP these days.

OhMerGod, the study was about diversity as a whole, and it controlled for all confounding factors. It didnt just look at black Americans. In any case, if discrimination alone is the reason why diversity is socially corrosive, well given that all groups discriminate against all other groups, and that is true of all diverse countries, then the findings are going to be applicable everywhere.

And you claim the studies are worthless, so what should be base our opinions on? Empirical data, or feel good opinions that lack any kind of foundation?

And whilst I would agree it would be better if people didnt focus on race, simply saying that we shouldnt is useless as a practical proposal. People are tribal. Social divisions have proven to be highly intractable. As and when it can be demonstrated that populations as a whole, not particular individuals, can be made to not be tribal, then maybe we can stop worrying about diversity of race, religion and culture, but as we have no good evidence to indicate that this is actually possible, the prudent course of action would be to stop importing these social divisions in the first place. Prevention is better than an as yet undiscovered cure. Not least when there is no evidence to indicate the diversity is actually socially beneficial.

And no, we dont all benefit from economic migration. The net impact of immigration on GDP per capita has been found on more than one occasion to be trivially small. On top of that it is regressive (which is to say it transfers wealth from the poor to the rich). When you increase the supply of labour, the real value of wages is depressed, and profits transfer from labour to capital (or the owners of capita, ie. the rich). So for a trivial net gain, which disproportionately hurts the poor to the advantage of the rich, we have all the problems associated with diversity that I previously mentioned. Is that worth it? Not at all. Is it necessary? Not at all.

You assumed children/parents of a different colour from you would behave in less welcoming way.

Maybe she has had very bad personal experiences of this which you know nothing about?

loads of teachers are shite
Evidence? And as stated above their replacements will still need paying. Are you aware that new capability processes came in last September?

The policy of prioritising social housing to those whose parents and grandparents were born locally is a funny one as it disadvantages those who have moved areas due to work. My parents moved away from the city they were born in after my father was made redundant following a takeover back in 1972 we had to move to where he could get a new job. How many people actually still live in the borough that their parents and grandparents were born?

I've had to deal with crap teachers - during school, dealing with parents evening, volunteering etc. That is my evidence (personal experiences). I also know of crap teachers through other parents.

Who has been racist? It seems like you become racist my default if you support UKIP these days.

If you have read the thread and found no evidence of racism, then I suppose it is unsurprising that you would not find UKIP racist either.

I do and a lot of northerners do?

So would you say that those Asian parents are racist for choosing to send their children to the one school in town that stands out for having 90% Asian pupils or for choosing to live in the predominantly Asian area? Why did they not choose the many other more mixed schools? I don't assume it makes them racist (though of course they might be or prejudiced) - just that they obviously feel more comfortable in choosing that school and that area to live in.

Hardly sufficient evidence that loads of teachers are shite And you didn't answer
my other question.

Actually Phoebe I have a fair degree of respect for dancingnancy because she is, from what I see, willing to engage in a discussion and think about things.

She says, in answer to my statement that "You assumed children/parents of a different colour from you would behave in less welcoming way." that 'Yes, there probably was some of that in it.' She has shown herself - to fifthsense - to be willing to apologise when she caused offense.

I think she is wrong, I think she has said some things on here which are racist and she doesn't realise it herself. But the fact she is willing to think about things is a positive.

dancing nancy read your earlier comment about Asians being afraid to go out and being attacked I think that will answer your question about why they may choose to live in a predominantly Asian area.

If Asian parents chose a school on the basis that they didn't want their kids to go to a school where most of the other kids were white, then yes, I would think they were racist.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I have picked UKIP as I believe they will benefit me & the area in which I live. I can only go off personal experience. To me that is sufficient. I don't want to be a minority - I want to be able to speak freely with everyone who lives in my country in English. I haven't picked apart every UKIP policy and I doubt many of you on here will have done the same to your own political party.

Phoebe "Maybe she has had very bad personal experiences of this which you know nothing about?"

No I haven't had bad experiences. Many of my closest friends are from Asian or different racial and cultural backgrounds.

OP YANBU. That was the original question wasn't it?

Jacks "dancing nancy read your earlier comment about Asians being afraid to go out and being attacked I think that will answer your question about why they may choose to live in a predominantly Asian area."

Yes, I totally agree and understand this. I wasn't criticising them for making these choices.

Ihaveafithsense,

Petulantly demanding a response from me and accusing me of deliberately ignoring your post is stupid. Posts are appearing on this thread rapidly and by the time I finished writing the reply to adoptmama, it had already gone onto another page. As your post was the last one on that page, I didnt read it. I then went on a walk and so didnt reply to anyone for a while.

In any case, I dont owe you a reply. My time is my own, and I am not obliged to reply to anyone.

Anyway, my question about how many people have grown up in an area where whites are in an overwhelming minority is yes, directed at the white people who claim to be diversity enthusiasts. The fact that minorities often grow up in areas which are predominantly non white actually strengthens my argument: like white people, minorities dont like to feel alienated from the communities in which they live, so they generally consciously choose to live in areas where there is already a sizeable non white population. So the fact that you as a non white person grew up in a majority non white area no more contradicts my point than a white person living in a majority white area.

And your anecdotal examples of white people at ease with diversity, well firstly, I never claimed there are no people who are indifferent to or in favour of diversity, I said MOST people prefer the company of people like themselves, and that most white liberals, like Billy Brag, like to extol the virtues of diversity whilst largely avoiding it in their personal lives. For these same people to then castigate the OP for wanting her child to grow up with people she can identify with, or even just be able to actually speak to, is disgusting hypocrisy.

And how do you know the one white kid in your class loved being the only white kid in his class? Did he come from a majority white school and say how much he preferred being the only white kid to being in the majority? Anecdotes arent very good evidence. And as I say,the evidence indicates that by and large diversity is bad for social cohesion.

well, i did until her last post :)

and yes nancy if Asian people said they chose to avoid a school with a majority white population for no other reason than their prejudicial judgement that the whites would be racist and socially excluding, I would call them racist

just as i consider it racist that you chose to avoid a school where the majority were Asian simply because they were Asian. As the mother of two beautiful, smart, friendly, articulate and BROWN children I find your behaviour racist and offensive.

Leftwingechochamber but you're seeking to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. The horse bolted the day Neanderthals, Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens wandered into each other. When Vikings crossed into what is now the UK, when Columbus, Magellan and Francis Drake et al circumnavigated the globe. What you are frightened of started long ago. Fortress Britain never really existed its always been a leaky sieve it's just that technological advances mean greater numbers of people flow in and out . Today these 'tribes' that you speak of are becoming meaningless and soon will be obsolete. They have blended merged and emerged anew over centuries. A new order is emerging now, fuelled by digital technology and scientific development. Globalisation for all its ills and benefits is our today and our tomorrow. Why cling to these old tribes? For comfort? It's a hollow comfort, they will do us no good in the future. Adapt, evolve and survive.

I'm currently waiting (dreading) to hear what school my 4 year old has been allocated.

We are white and live in a disproportionality white town in the heart of Surrey.

Although not my primary criteria, our first choice of primary school is the one that WASNT made up of mostly 'white british' (according to ousted, and whatever that means!).

I want DS1 to mix and grow up with children from as many different cultures and nationalities as possible, especially since we live in a predominantly white area. I think it's important.

I certainly DONT want him mixing with the OPs kids, who will unfortunately probably acquire her xenophobic and racist outlook on life!

Maybe it's the unknown that I'm unsure of.
They don't seem to want to engage with me, maybe I should try harder.
Thankyou for giving me this thought.

charlottehines these forums aren't the best place to explore these feelings. You have lots of Asian friends. Why not take a few of the things you've written in posts and share with them one on one and get a feel for their perspective? It's going to be easier for you to gauge reactions from those you know and trust. All the best for you and your DC.

our societies will inevitably be more ethnically diverse tomorrow than they are today. And that diversity will be a valuable national asset.3 It is not merely that national cuisine is enhanced by immigration, or even that culture of all sorts is enhanced by diversity, though culture and cuisine in my own country provide powerful evidence of those benefits.

In the short run, however, immigration and ethnic diversity tend to reduce social solidarity and social capital. IN THE SHORT TERM!

Ethnic diversity will increase substantially in virtually all modern societies over the next several decades, in part because of immigration. Increased immigration and diversity are not only inevitable, but over the long run they are also desirable.

Robert D Putnam.