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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to be the minority where I live?

734 replies

Charlottehines · 12/04/2014 09:18

It really saddens me that in parks and soft plays with my children, that I am in the minority and my children can't play with other children there as they all play together and obviously can't speak English.
I'm in no way racist, my husband is of mixed origin but I do find it incredibly sad that my children are growing up the minority especially when these other groups make no effort to integrate with other mums or the children.
Am I completely unreasonable to feel sad about this?

OP posts:
OhMerGerd · 12/04/2014 16:18

caruthers what do you mean? Why UKIP has become more prevalent? But they're not a racist party are they? They're anti Europe as an economic and political bloc. Obviously that attracts some xenophobes and racists but they come in many different shades and faiths in the UK.
Do you mean because people think/believe/fantasise that UKIP will legislate to make it legal to abuse people who are in minorities? Like people with disabilities, gay people, immigrants and British born people with heritage outside the UK. So it will be ok for someone to open a thread blaming bad experience with one group of people on the fact that they belong to that group and not just because the person is rude/drunk/mentally ill or whatever. If you mean that, then you're not only being unreasonable, you're deluded.

Wanting to have a fact based discussion about globalisation, the commodification of people, the movement of people around the globe and shared space values and rules, taking in all the realities of a globalised economy/culture and the Uk's changing status in the world is however something I support wholeheartedly and will campaign alongside you or anyone else for. But for now we discuss on this thread.

Dawndonnaagain · 12/04/2014 16:23

Oh good grief, Nancy the one that's already been quoted!
Confused

caruthers · 12/04/2014 16:25

OhMerGerd are you denying UKIP are garnering support?

Your hyperbole regarding UKIP is generating support for them.

The values of the incumbent govt are at odds with a lot of people in this country and that will be addressed given time.

It wasn't long ago that both the labour and conservatives were labelled as anti this and anti that with the left attacking the right and vice versa.

adoptmama · 12/04/2014 16:27

it is so ludicrous to try to define British as 'white'

there have been communities of non-white people in Britain since before Britain existed as a nation.

it makes me very uncomfortable when people start to talk about 'white' and 'british' as the same thing and to hearken back to ye good olden days because what they generally mean is the days when the position of white people was one of unchallenged superiority, when it was acceptable to have signs saying 'no blacks, no dogs, no irish', when the only 'people of colour' on tv were there to be mocked or to represent sterotypes for the majority to laugh at.

as fifthsense so nicely expressed it, there are many ways to be British. To object to your child going to a school because it is 90% Asian is racist. There's no real reason to have a debate about it. It is racist. If you are going to be racist at least have the bloody balls to stand up and say yes, I am being racist and these are the reasons why. Have the courage of your convictions - however unpleasant they are - instead of trying to pretend your reasons are something else entirely.

dancingnancy · 12/04/2014 16:29

Ihaveafifthsense - I'm truly sorry if I have offended you. Yes, you are British and of course I have no problem with my children going to school with your children. Have no issues with people who are "non white". The school I mentioned just does not reflect the diversity of our town. I was speaking of a specific school I looked at. Sending my child there would have made him very much a minority at the school. I just prefer my child to go to a more diverse school. I would imagine some asian or black parents would choose a more diverse school for their children rather than say one which was 90% white for their child if they had a choice.

jacks365 · 12/04/2014 16:33

Some of my Asian friends are afraid sometimes to go out and about on their own, even though they were born here and have been verbally abused and one even had her hijab pulled off.

If you live your life with this amount of fear then living predominantly in communities of like minded people is understandable ie safety in numbers. Until we become open and welcoming and accepting of all people who live here irrespective of skin colour, race, religion we will never see true integration.

Misspixietrix · 12/04/2014 16:35

My Ex is black. I am white. Our DCs are mixed race. I can't say that the % of non - white people factored into our decision for their Schooling.

MoominMammasHandbag · 12/04/2014 16:38

Well I think I'm racist then. I'm white, I have non white friends but I don't think it would be in my kids' best interests to go to a school where they were in a cultural minority. On the flip side, I can see why people who are immigrants feel the need to send their kids to school with people of the same culture. It must be horrible to be the only non white face in a white school.

adoptmama · 12/04/2014 16:38

but you would have a problem with your children going to school with fifthsense's children, dancingnancy if her children, and mine, were the predominant colour in the school.

that's what you are basically saying.

it is ok for your white children to go to school with my non-white kids and fifthsense's non white kids as long as our kids do not make up the majority of the school population; as long as your white child is not in the minority.

because......

why, please do enlighten me as to why brown skinned children like mine being in a majority would make school an negative experience for your child

OhMerGerd · 12/04/2014 16:38

dancingnancy I'm confused. With this statement "My whole point earlier was really wondering what it would feel like to be a minority in my own country (something I have no experience of). Some of my Asian friends are afraid sometimes to go out and about on their own, even though they were born here and have been verbally abused and one even had her hijab pulled off..." are you sympathising with all the 'non-white' British people who experience racism daily because of their colour? Horrid obvious things like having the hijab pulled off but also that everyday drip drip snide racism, for example when people say things like they wouldn't want to send their children to a school where there were large numbers of people of darker skin tone?

Or are you trying to say only people who are 'white' can call the UK 'my own country'?

I hope it's the former and I've got you all wrong. But as you say, I don't know you and can only judge you on what you type here and claim your feelings and beliefs to be. If it's the latter I hope you won't take offence or think I'm frothy if I suggest that you might want to examine your assumptions, prejudices and beliefs because you are coming across as racist.

Misspixietrix · 12/04/2014 16:39

Some of my Asian friends < but are they Asian or are they British? I had to point this out to Grandma Pixie a few weeks ago when she described her black British born English speaking (no accent) Doctor as 'someone from the Caribbean' Confused.

Misspixietrix · 12/04/2014 16:42

Interesting about the school uptake argument. The people I see who are pregnant and usually already have four or five kids trailing behind them are usually of white origin. To me. They are the people taking up the school places in a few years time.

caruthers · 12/04/2014 16:44

Misspixietrix what a disgusting thing to say.

Leftwingechochamber · 12/04/2014 16:46

To the self righteous arseholes who think it is despicably racist to wish to be surrounded by comfortable familiarity rather than feeling like a foreigner in your own country, I would have to ask how many of you grew up or live in an area which is 90% Asian? How many of you have children at such schools?

I suspect the large majority of your are admirers of diversity from afar: diversity is great, so long as its other people who have to experience it, and my social circle and that of my kids is majority white.

And for the small number of you who actually do embrace diversity, I am sure no one would object if you migrated to South Asia or Africa (well maybe the South Asians and Africans themselves, and to judge from the self-righteous arseholery of this thread, I cant say I blame them), but before saying its fine to inflict radical demographic change on everyone else, you might want to bare in mind that the majority of the population does not, nor has it ever, supported mass immigration. And really, why would they? By and large, people like to associate with those like themselves, be it class, race, religion, ideology, interests and so on. And immigrants do not differ simply in race, they differ in all of the above in terms of aggregate trends.

Its also worth pointing out that for all the feel good rhetoric that surrounds diversity and multiculturalism, when people actually do empirical research on the matter, the results are that its impact is overwhelmingly negative. Take the following study by Robert Putnam:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

"In recent years, Putnam has been engaged in a comprehensive study of the relationship between trust within communities and their ethnic diversity. His conclusion based on over 40 cases and 30 000 people within the United States is that, other things being equal, more diversity in a community is associated with less trust both between and within ethnic groups...

Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:

Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.
Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.
Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.
Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.
Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).
Less likelihood of working on a community project.
Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.
Fewer close friends and confidants.
Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.
More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment"."

So thats quite a lengthy list of reasons to not wish to have diversity. I havent seen any scholarly work which indicates that diversity has any comparably positive social benefits.

And to pre empt accusations that the author of the study is racist:

"Putnam published his data set from this study in 2001[4][5] and subsequently published the full paper in 2007.[6]

Putnam has been criticized for the lag between his initial study and his publication of his article. In 2006, Putnam was quoted in the Financial Times as saying he had delayed publishing the article until he could "develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity" (quote from John Lloyd of Financial Times)."

And to the people claiming the OP must be a liar because of the demographics of Surrey as a whole, that is not necessarily representative of the demographics of young children in the particular area of Surrey in which she lives.

Misspixietrix · 12/04/2014 16:47

On this thread? but it is perfectly okay to claim that over 90% of immigrant children are causing the need for oversubscription in schools. Alright then caruthers Hmm

MiscellaneousAssortment · 12/04/2014 16:48

I don't think your experiences are race related, I think they are people related.

I havent read all the pages but I do worry about you wondering if everywhere is the same. That feels a little odd, and comes more from fear of change vs the reality of immigration, culture and integration.

caruthers · 12/04/2014 16:49

So that makes you better Misspixietrix ?

Great post Leftwingechochamber

ikeaismylocal · 12/04/2014 16:49

My child will be in a minority group no matter where he goes to school, he's half Swedish and half British, if we move to the UK it's unlikely that he would have any friends with a Swedish or even Scandinavian background, if we stay in Sweden ( which is the plan) he would possibly have a couple of friends with an English speaking background.

I'm teaching him to embrace his individuality rather than resent his differences.

Misspixietrix · 12/04/2014 16:51

Never said it did.

Misspixietrix · 12/04/2014 16:53

Lovely post Leftwing

adoptmama · 12/04/2014 16:53

leftwing you are a case in point as to why wikipedia is a shit source of information.

the article you quote to which references the research of Harvard socioloigst Robert Putnam is one of the things he is totally pissed about because it only looks at part of his research conclusions and twists them to suggest that multi-culturalism is bad.

which is not what he said, and he has taken out the law suits to prove it

what he said was that there can be many difficulties in the short term but that these can be overcome with work and that the long term benefits of multi-culturalism are beneficial to a society

in brief for example: chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-says-his-research-was-twisted/30357

so in fact the research you so enthusiastically quote as saying multiculturalism is bad...

said exactly the opposite

marfisa · 12/04/2014 16:58

I'd be very interested to hang out at the playground with the OP and her DC and watch them interacting with people. Because if she and her DC are being ostracised by EVERYONE in the way she says, she must be giving out some frighteningly hostile signals. (ALL of the parents and their DC are shunning you, OP? Really?)

Our closest playground is frequented by people of a lot of different ethnicities. Polish, Asian, white British. Sometimes I go there and all the other parents and DC there are chatting in languages other than English. This has never stopped my DC and me from interacting with their DC and them. Kids play together regardless, as people have said. If another DC 'attacked' one of mine I wouldn't rush over to the other parent to complain, I would speak to the other DC politely and firmly and redirect them to some other activity.

Either the OP is talking rubbish or she is showing her disdain for the other parents so overtly that they're all avoiding her. And either way, racism is an issue (hers not theirs).

dancingnancy · 12/04/2014 16:59

Ohmegerd "Or are you trying to say only people who are 'white' can call the UK 'my own country'? "

Of course not. I don't equate with being British as being 'white'. I class anyone as British as someone who was born here and identifies as being British. The 'own country' comment was only in context to me saying as I'm white and born here I don't know what it feels like to be considered a minority or to have folk look at me as 'other' in the country I was born in. I was raised catholic though in an area where historically Catholics were looked down and discriminated against.

IHaveAFifthSense · 12/04/2014 17:00

Leftwing I have grown up in an area like the one you have described. Granted, I'm in the "non-white majority" so perhaps by viewpoint isn't so relevant to you, but I can say that my white friends and family have never found it to be a problem.

When I was in school, there was one white ('English white') boy in my entire year. Just one. He had no issues whatsoever. He loved it. There was a school just down the road which was majority white but his parents had chosen to send him to our school because it's academic results were no better or worse, and they preferred the school.

You sound very bitter about having "radical" demographic change "inflicted" upon you. Sorry you have such a "lengthy list of reasons to not wish to have diversity". You must find it so difficult living in a multicultural area. Here, have a brew, it might calm you down a bit Brew.

Leftwingechochamber · 12/04/2014 17:02

Adoptmama, how am I "twisting" his findings exactly, merely by quoting what they are?

I am aware that Robert Putnam is pro diversity. I even quoted from that same article to indicate that he didnt like his own findings and hence delayed publishing them for 6 years, so he could "compensate" for his own results.

However, the fact is, he has only produced compelling evidence to indicate that diversity is socially corrosive. However much he may wish it to be otherwise, he has produced no comparable research that points to the contrary.