To be getting fed up with this hatred of schools and teachers.

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In another thread (this is not really a thread about a thread) about schools some posters have made it very clear that they hate schools, see teachers as jumped up nazis and feel that everyone is feeling superior and looking down on them.

Am I alone is feeling upset and insulted by this?

I am a teacher and surely we both want the same thing, the best for your child?
We are not the enemy. We are on the same side.

X-post, Philoslothy; you have just explained the difference in the work load! I chose the wrong keystage!

I can't leave every day at 3:30 but the option is there for at least 2 days a week. I like that.

I am in school for 7am. About 3 days a week I finish at 6 - but unless I have a meeting that is a choice I make.

I work in the UK. I work between 12 and 15 hours a day. But the job allows me to be flexible as to where I do that work.

I am all in favour of teachers who aren't up to the mark being made to leave the profession - there are a number of teachers whom I know I would not allow anywhere near my child. Likewise there are schools I wouldn't dream of sending my DD to.

However these teachers are often employed because schools have an intake of pupils from really tough areas and it is nigh impossibly to recruit and retain the very best teachers. After all who willingly walks into a classroom to be sworn at, have their efforts laughed at, to be threatened both physically and verbally, to have a chair thrown at them, to have their personal possessions taken and maybe destroyed in front of them?

I have taught in a school like that and seen teachers destroyed by this sort of behaviour. I'm not saying that putting these teachers in a class full of perfectly behaved pupils will make them outstanding teachers but they would at least have a fighting chance of delivering their lesson well and ensuring pupils make progress.

My point has always been unless you can get children to behave you can't teach them and this is true regardless of what type of school you teach in. I don't see anything about the education system which addresses this issue and I think this is where any changes must begin.

If schools were places where poor pupil behaviour was not tolerated, where pupils could be removed fairly easily if they refused to toe the line, where "A Cool to Lean" philosophy existed and where an ethos of mutual respect was prevalent then the issue of poor quality teaching would be easy to spot and I suspect easier to deal with.

Mr Jones would not be able to argue that Little Jimmy is such a pain and so destroys his efforts at teaching. Mr Jones would have to face the fact that he is not delivering a lesson well enough and it is his failing which is letting down 4B and not the disruptive pupils whom the Head insists on keeping in school so the exclusion figures don't highlight "issues." Mr Jones should then be pretty quickly supported to get his lessons well structured, focused and engaging and be seen to do this on a daily basis otherwise he would be looking for a new career.

I have personally never encountered teacher bashing, everyone I know says they admire teachers and "would kill kids" if they were in the classroom. I think it's different on-line though isn't it? We can all spout any old tripe on a faceless forum and there's no comeback. Anyone who says they hate teachers or doctors or lawyers as a blanket statement really is of pygmy intellect and wouldn't warrant a response from me. I would just think they needed a better education!

My point philoslothy is that the attitude you get from some teachers is that they have a a good degree therefore they deserve to earn more/have a better pension/deserve more respect but their good degree isn't the most important thing about them. Their ability as a teacher is more important.

I went to DS1's option evening last term with DH. They talked about the 'other' sort of levels where a GCSE grade is a level 1 or a good GCSE is a level 2 and A level is a level 3 and all that (can't remember the detail). Both DH and I are level 7's - we both have masters degrees. I bet in terms of degrees we out qualified virtually all the teachers in the school - there are definitely no PHd's although I suppose there could be some masters degrees amongst them. That doesn't mean either of us would be good teachers and it doesn't mean we could train to be good teachers. I reckon at best both of us would be satisfactory (requiring improvement by today's standards). On the whole, despite not having as good degrees as either of us, we are still very happy for them to teach our children because of their teaching ability.

Having a good degree doesn't warrant the instant respect that some teachers seem to think it does.

The problem is that this debate gets absurdly polarised. Someone will slag off a all teachers as being useless, lazy, overpaid, under-worked morons and the teachers on here will (quite understandably) will get their heckles up and counter with 'how dare you, teachers are worked to death, undervalued, underpaid and do a great job. Teachers seem to have a siege mentality and feel they are attacked from all sides and I can see why and as a result sometimes end of defending the indefensible and seeing themselves as uniquely put upon.

Whereas in reality (as a child of two teachers and friends with many more teachers ) the truth lies in the middle. Some are excellent , some are dreadful (and very difficult to get rid of) with the vast bulk being somewhere in-between, good at their job, but not without shortcomings, blind spots and foibles. It is wrong of the anti-teaching brigade to leap on isolated examples of poor teaching as being emblematic of all teachers, but teachers do them self no favours when they deny that there isn't some very bad teachers and very bad teaching practise out there.

Yes teaching is difficult, demanding and target driven, but so are comparable jobs like social work (which I have some experience of) and nursing. It is part of a range of demanding and undervalued lower-grade professional jobs, but it is not uniquely so. I occasionally find the 'no one has it as tough as teachers, no one works as hard as teachers' attitude hard to swallow.

I have never met a teacher who thinks they deserve respect just because they have a degree. So many people have degrees now it would be setting the bar rather low! I tend not to mix with twats though.

. I occasionally find the 'no one has it as tough as teachers, no one works as hard as teachers' attitude hard to swallow.

Has anyone said this though? I hope that I am not in the hardest working profession, that would make a a martyr and for this wage a bit stupid. I am neither.

Good God, I was going to come on here to say you're exaggerating and no-one demonises teachers. But it seems they do if this thread is anything to go by!

Some horrible, offensive attitudes towards teachers - from posters with axes to grind agendas.

OP YANBU - though I agree with whoever said upthread that teachers don't deserve any more respect than any one else, but they deserve respect as a starting position (without sneering at their degrees etc).

My daugthers are nearly 14, 12 and 11 and I can only think of one or two not-terribly-brilliiant teachers during their years at school.

The rest have been great and I appreciate not only the education they've supplied but genuine love and care for my children.

I agree with ComposHat.

I have seen teachers saying their job is the most important job in the world. A knee jerk reaction to somebody asking why they think they have the right to strike it may have been (in the last round of strikes just before Labour lost office).

Sorry teaching is very important and I back the teachers to the hilt but the most important job in the world? No. It is that type of attitude that really gets people's backs up. Whoever it was got lots of backing from other teachers too - they do seem to gang up or close ranks more than most when faced with even justifiable criticism.

No, but the amount of mumping and moaning that I get from teacher friends and the assumption that they are the only ones who have to put up with bullshit targets, ministerial interference and the insufficient resources and a too big a workload is a bit galling. The fact that they are telling me this as if it was something entirely alien to someone who worked for social services, reflects a blinkered attitude and a sense I must have been having it much easier.

I don't understand why posts on here, which are usually complaining about a specific teacher or problem with a school (it's a bit like relationships, where hardly anyone posts to say how wonderful their DH is, it's rare that a good parent/teacher relationship is going to be mentioned on a thread) is taken to be wholesale 'teacher-bashing' and 'hatred' of schools and teachers.

I worked for THE Scottish bank of banking crisis fame until they made me redundant 2 years ago. I constantly read (at the time) threads about what morally bankrupt, evil fuckwits all bankers were and how we should all be sacked/have our wages slashed/get set on fire/whathaveyou. There are still plenty of similar comments being made on MN today.

I didn't and don't take it personally and start threads about all the hatred of bankers on MN because I know that I and most other people who work for banks are branch/back room staff, many on income support because their wages are so shitty, who have no decision-making power whatsoever, and the anger is not aimed at us.

I'm not sure why teachers are so quick to take offence on behalf of their whole profession when it's not they themselves who are being moaned about...

I know nine teachers. Seven are truly amazing, dedicated and inspirational people who I would be overjoyed to have teaching my child. One is a bit up himself and thinks he's super teacher (mind you, he thinks he's super everything ), but appears to have his pupils' interests at heart. One is an utter waste of space who went into teaching because she couldn't get a job in her chosen field, constantly moans about what 'little shits' her pupils are, how her head of subject is 'so unfair' for pulling her up on her cba attitude, how she cba to mark coursework, boasts about how all her lessons are all from worksheets and lots of other stuff. Thankfully she's now leaving teaching as 'it's too much hassle'. She's 26 and is a 'world owes me a living' type.

So I know that awful teachers are the distinct minority, but if that awful teacher is involved with your child's education, I think you have a right to complain!

if that awful teacher is involved with your child's education, I think you have a right to complain
too right lovecat - yet if we say anything at all we are told we are 'chippy' or 'have an axe to grind'.
you are damn right i have an axe to grind about certain people. - sorry does that make me a bad parent or something? should I have pretended that everything was lovely for the sake of 'teaching my children to respect education'?

I have heard several say they have good degree from good universities and deserve better because of that. Teaching ability is more important.

Good post Lovecat.

op. For goodness sake, dont take notice of mumsnet. Take notice of real life. Mumsnet is not real life!
Turn it off if you have to, or at least dont click on the education parts.

I'm a primary teacher, and I have the Primary Ed section hidden on here.
It's made my life happier.

that would make a a martyr and for this wage a bit stupid. I am neither.

This kind of makes my point: the idea that teaching is badly paid. It really isn't. It offers an attractive starting salary, incremental pay increases and plenty of opportunities for progression. Look at the pay, conditions and working hours of social workers and nurses, are they significantly better?

Yes people are idiots when they claim teachers work 9-3:30pm and get 13 weeks to swan around. It clearly demands a lot of unpaid out of hours work, but then so do most jobs above a certain level. It isn't on to expect the respect, status and pay afforded to a professional and then be surprised that it comes with the responsibilities and duties to match.

Bertha Most teachers at my school have a masters - it's very common now. Most PGCEs are now masters level and give you 60 credits, so it's very easy to complete your masters as you teach (which is what I did).

If you have an axe to grind about a specific teacher, because you know that they are incompetent, then you'll be expending your energy on pursuing things through your child's school, not busily banging on about teachers generally on mumsnet....

If you have an axe to grind about a specific teacher, because you know that they are incompetent, then you'll be expending your energy on pursuing things through your child's school, not busily banging on about teachers generally on mumsnet....

I actually want my children's teachers to think that their job is of prime importance.

I used to work in education, following a career outside it. I've now gone back to industry and will never teach again.

My thoughts regarding the staff I worked with, and those who I remember teaching me, is that teachers should be selected according to whether they can actually inspire in the classroom and communicate effectively and naturally with their students. Some people will NEVER be able to do this, they themselves are just not aspirational (Ed Miliband anyone?).

I remember a fantastic FE tutor whom the students adored and hung on his every word, but was squeezed out due to not having qualifications that were deemed necessary in yet another 'we must improve the quality of teaching' drive.

This kind of makes my point: the idea that teaching is badly paid. It really isn't. It offers an attractive starting salary, incremental pay increases and plenty of opportunities for progression. Look at the pay, conditions and working hours of social workers and nurses, are they significantly better?

I haven't said it is badly paid, I wouldn't do a job that I felt was badly paid, I am far too selfish for that. However if it was the hardest job in the universe it would be badly paid.

not busily banging on about teachers generally on mumsnet
if you had read my posts you would know that i have not been 'busily banging on about teachers in general' - oh no silly me.....reading a post? what a foolish notion!