Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

My post is probably confusing. I agree that you (lev) should feel safe. So that you can be clear on that you should have a space to undress where you can be confident it is women only. Having a penis would make that difficult

FrontForward except most men haven't had the same experience of sexual assault - and the threat of sexual assault, which is in plenty of cases almost as traumatic - as many, many women. (Some men have, but not most.) You are comparing apples and oranges.

I know perfectly well that it's possible to own a penis and not rape. Most men and most non-transitioned women are not rapists. But my assessment of risk changes when I am in a vulnerable space with someone who I know (or reasonably expect) possesses a penis and one who doesn't. (I think it's known as Shroedinger's Rapist, but I may have got that wrong, also I can't spell it...)

Wait, what? I'm surprised by this. Are we supposed to be ok with sharing changing rooms with male-bodied people now? I'm not. I don't want there to be strangers with penises while I'm undressing. I don't care if they're the nicest person ever I have fucking PTSD.

If someone was serious about being a MTF surely they wouldn't be comfortable showing off their male crotch to strangers? Wouldn't they avoid that until after transition?

Lougle, almondcakes explanation seems pretty good to me, but it might help you to get your head around it if you consider it alongside the idea that we are not talking about two boxes - one labelled 'men (with subcompartment for gay men)' and one labelled 'women (with subcompartment for lesbians)'.

It's more like a series of dials.

One marked 'Body' which can point to 'penis' or 'vagina' (or more rarely somewhere in between).

One marked 'Sexuality' marked 'Attracted to men' on the left of the dial, 'attracted to women' on the right, 'attracted to both' at the top, and 'attracted to neither' at the bottom - this dial can point to anywhere around the circle.

One marked 'How you feel' which can point to 'male', 'female' or anywhere in between. Whether the cause or location of the feeling is social, biological or a combination of both isn't really known, and isn't relevant for most practical purposes, or for this analogy.

One marked 'Happiness with your body'. This needs to be a multidimensional dial because although it runs from 'Delighted' to 'I hate it all' the in between points cover such wildly different unhappinesses as 'I have the wrong genitals', 'my toes are too hairy', 'my nose is too big' and I have too many legs'.

One marked 'behaviour and interests' - admittedly this one is too varied to really work as a dial, but think of what someone does in the context of whether society considers those to be 'men's things' or 'women's things'. Presumably you're OK with the idea that this can be set to 'embroidery' in a person whose body dial is set to 'penis', or 'driving fast cars' in someone whose body is set to 'vagina'? Well all the other dials work in similarly independent ways - some combinations are more likely than others, but any combination is possible. Feeling female doesn't automatically mean you dislike having a penis body (and certainly not that you'd dislike it enough to have major surgery), any more than it means you have to be attracted to women, or drink pints and love football.

OP, if there is a conflict between your individual perspective on trans people and the law (which is what you seem to be saying), then I think you have to decide what purpose you are describing what trans gender means to your child for, depending on the age of a child.

Are you describing it so that your child will be courteous to transgender people, and use their preferred pronouns?

Are you describing it so that your child, when older, knows how to adhere to equality law in school?

Are you describing it to your child so that they have some kind of political perspective?

Are you describing it to your child because you think it will somehow inform their own sense of being a boy or a girl and why they are a boy or a girl?

Are you describing it to your child because they have a trans friend, teacher or family member and you want your child to relate to them well?

Why you are telling them this informs what you are going to tell them.

The other option OP that I know some people do, is explain women and transwomen as two different "categories". Sorry can't think of another word except category.

PunkHedgehog, I posted a visual representation about gender, body, and sexuality earlier in the thread. Ones interests have nothing to do with being a trans person - one can be a butch trans woman or a femme trans man. Interests have nothing to do with it, it's how someone views and identifies themselves. And one can be a trans person and not feel a need to change their bodies.

Briar: The purpose of recognising it (and yes there are other mammals that have sexes subdivided as do humans by karotypes alongside the multiple types of intersex sexes) is to show that the binary system in place is a cultural construct that can be challenged not some immutable fact (though no science actually is), though I thought that would be the least important part of that post. And please don't call people "a MTF", it's quite dehumanizing. Saying a trans woman is just as clear.

And as someone who is a victim of sexual assault and has PTSD, individual and family changing rooms would surely be a better solution. People can be an attacker or be attacked regardless of their genitals. And, really, trans people are far more likely to be attacked than for a trans person to choose to attack someone in a restroom or changing room. All of these posts always end up here and it's very rarely raised that trans women are far more likely to be attacked and killed (It's a 1 in 12 risk, 1 in 8 for trans women of colour, the risk for cis women in 1 in tens of thousands). If we want to reduce risks for everyone then kicking some people out to be at more risk isn't the answer.

People can take hormones and never have bottom surgery. Many people even if they wanted to would never be able to do that, it has its risks even to the healthy. To imply that that makes them less than trans women is quite ableistic, let alone the fueling of patriarchy that someone's identity is tied to their bodies. And passing as male as a woman is quite terrifying, you get to hear all sorts of things that makes the idea of being found out as a woman alarming. It's too often forgotten that many trans women never identify as male and go through that.

lougle: If someone has XXX chromosomes and appears female does that make them less woman for having an extra X? If someone has XY but has androgen insensitivity so they appear female but have a Y chromosome? What about someone with intersex genitalia, regardless of chromosomes, in a country that doesn't yet legally recognise them and is assigned female? Even 'biologically', it isn't as simple as that. Like almond said, it seems the purpose of your post seems to change over time and it's quite confusing. Personally, while I went through the process you describe from the mainstream binary you describe to a view much against that, the jump doesn't need to be so large. Why would I want to agree and promote a system that makes my identity and viewpoint of myself are tied with how someone else identified me based on how they saw my body? I wouldn't, I would want a say in how I identify based on how I see it. It's not really more complicated than that.

Thanks almondcake - I'm going to be describing transgender to explain why someone who appears to be male has a female name and wears large amounts of pink most of the time (presumably to emphasise/clarify that they are now a woman). She will be confused because she will hear a male voice, see male features, etc., but then be expected to use a female name and see 'female' attire.

For most children that's quite straightforward, possibly, but given that it took quite a long time to establish 'boy' and 'girl', 'he' and 'she', 'her' and 'him' in her language without confusion and muddling, it will obviously be a new source of confusion to her if she doesn't get some sort of explanation.

Additionally, I don't want her to offend this individual, so I want to be able to give her a clear 'rule' about how this person should be seen/addressed/thought of.

I'm ignoring the further debates around identifying as a particular sex and rights to use facilities for them, because I don't know enough to comment.

TheSpork it's pretty patronising to throw statistics at people who are, for very good reasons, themselves not wanting to be in a room with male-bodied people. You can quote all the statistics you like, but when I fall on the wrong side of those statistics, it's no comfort at all.

You may, with your own experience, have come to one conclusion about what makes you safe (and what makes you feel safe, which is slightly different). It's really not up to you to decide that for other women.

TheSpork-
And please don't call people "a MTF", it's quite dehumanizing.
Kim on this thread is trans (? I think) and used the term

And as someone who is a victim of sexual assault and has PTSD, individual and family changing rooms would surely be a better solution. People can be an attacker or be attacked regardless of their genitals.

Explaining to me, a woman who have trauma because of male violence what I should and should not be comfortable with…wow, I’m really offended actually.

Why is it the women who should leave the women’s changing room and go change somewhere else if we don’t want to share it with male-bodied people? Why can’t the very few individuals who have an intact penis but don’t want to use the men’s changing room use a private one? Why should the women use the private/different ones?

Spork, that statistic cannot possibly be true. Only about 600 people a year in total are murdered in the UK. If every single one of those people was a trans person (which is clearly not even remotely the case) the likelihood of a trans person being murdered over the course of their life would still not be 1 in 12.

Lougle, I would say that some people want to wear pink clothes and have a particular name, and anyone can do that. It doesn't matter if a boy or girl wants to wear pink. I would then say that whatever somebody looks like they might be man or a woman, and if you are not sure you can just listen to whether they or their friends call them she or he, but mostly you can tell, just with a few people you can't, and you must be polite and not start saying in front of them, 'I don't know if they are a man or woman' or similar. I would also say that if you get it wrong, and somebody tells you they are a woman when you called them he, just say sorry and then move on. Don't dwell on it.

People make mistakes, and in most cases the person isn't transgender; they're a person whose gender is hard for kids to work out for other reasons. A lot of the time it will be about another child, because boys and girls do look very similar if there are not obvious hair cut and clothing differences. As lots of people do all kind of things that don't fall into gender roles but aren't transgender, I think you have to make it clear that it is about what they say, otherwise they might meet a boy in a pink tshirt or whatever and assume they're a girl.

DS did this when he was about three. He kept insisting somebody was a man when they were in fact a woman. This wasn't a trans person(as far as I know); it was just a woman who had quite a masculine face. I started with the general point that it was rude to start talking about someone when they are right there and can hear you!

I read somewhere where someone had listed all the people who were Trans who had been murdered in 2013. Every murder of course is a tragedy. But in the UK, unless you are in the sex industry which is dangerous for anyone who is being prostituted, your risk of murder is low. In a few Latin American countries, Trans people do suffer a very high murder rate.

Many Trans people use the term MtoF, some Trans people object to it. I guess in any group of people there will always be some people who don't agree with a particular term.

The statistic comes from the Human Rights Campaign (who are in the middle of redoing the transgender section on their website so the document called Transgender Basics isn't up yet but can be second sourced through several websites), mainly based on US and global statistics, not UK which as far as I can tell doesn't keep those kind of statistics publicly available if at all. UK cultures is not so different as to ignore that trans people are more likely to be attacked than to be the attacker and the constantly brought up fear of being attacked in bathrooms does not reflect reality and endangers trans people.

My argument was to have individual and family changing for everyone to keep everyone safe and that pushing those already at risk into a more dangerous situation does not benefit society nor the individual not that certain people should go to private ones - because one could be attacked by a cis woman in a woman's changing room and group changing rooms carry inherent risks. I imagine many would be uncomfortable and would raise a few children's questions with a trans man who while having a vulva and vagina had been taking testosterone, possibly had top surgery and and a beard, and because of their genitals was forced to using a woman's changing room. Seeing as people take hormones well before and if they have surgery, that's a real possibility. Actually, as I no longer swim or use changing rooms, and can't even recall the last time I used a public restroom, I don't even know why I'm debating this other than I'm sick of the portrayal of trans people as some sorts of monsters.

I was sexually assaulted by a group of women to "teach me a lesson", I was held down, was left in a pool of blood and it almost caused me to miscarry my first child. I wasn't able to talk about it for years. I already had PTSD from abuse in my childhood, this was just another layer. And every time trans people come up, this fear comes up that we're out to trick and attack people and all it tells me is that the risks to me and my safety as a genderqueer trans person and that of all other trans people are not as important as everyone else's fears and feelings about us. That no one actually gives a fuck about our safety, our lives, our perspective, they just want us to stay away and not be confusing or a risk. I already do that as best I can for my own safety, but the constant rhetoric that we're this danger without any mention of how risky cis people are to us just puts other trans people at risk and it's horrifying. It reminds me of when I passed as male and hearing cis men who didn't know who I was talking about women and transgender people - it's frightening and reminds me why I avoid coming out to them at all cost.

Personally, I find the best way to inform young people is to read novels and memoirs or blogs by trans people openly discussing it. It is good at showing the humanity and perspective with a lot of clarity without putting anyone on the spot or at risk. Janet Mock's Redefining Realness is a recent, very open account and reflection on an experience as a trans woman.

What really sad stories. I hope you all find better understanding and heal those wounds you carry. I'd like to thank you all for sharing and improving my understanding.

That's an awful thing to happen to you, TheSpork .

I'm not suggesting that you should 'stay away' or 'not be confusing'. I'm just trying to work out how to explain something so very complicated to a child who has enough understanding to need to have an explanation, but the maturity of a child half her age and the emotional vulnerability that can't be quantified.

If I can't understand myself, I can't expect her to understand. I'm trying to get there.

I think where I am (and I'm not happy with myself, just being honest) is that I can understand:

'x wants to live as a woman (man)'
'x has had surgery to change his (her) body to become a woman (man)'
'x wants to become a woman (man) so is taking hormones to become female (male).'

I'm struggling to understand:

'x has decided to be a woman (man) so she (he) is because she (he) has decided that she (he) and you need to accept that'

Spork, your story is really sad and I am very sorry this has happened to you.

The UK certainly keep statistics on this because violence against transgender people is a specific hate crime in UK law. The situation for transgender people in the UK must be vastly different, to the point of bearing almost no comparison, because the entire figures for murders of anyone on the UK population do not even come remotely close to the proportion of murder just of transgender people you are giving for the US. It would mean that 50,000 transgender people would have been murdered in the UK in my lifetime, which is double the number of all the UK murders of anyone in that time.

In fact given that level of violence in the US, transgender people from the US should be given asylum in the UK, to escape persecution.

TheSpork, what happened to you was just awful, and I'm so sorry that was done to you.

What I think you perhaps aren't acknowledging here is that your experience is hardly specific to genderqueer or trans people, but is a pretty common experience suffered by many women. I know so many women who are carrying terrible scars - mental and physical - because they were attacked for not being "acceptable" in one way or another. The fear many women have of attack isn't some imaginary thing created in order to oppress trans people, but because it corrolates with many women's experience - not being attacked specifically by trans women (though it does happen, and it's ridiculous to claim that trans people would never attack others, or rape others - people are people, whatever their gender id, and some are nice and some are not), but attack by male-bodied people nonetheless, people who are bigger and stronger, and who think they have a right to PIV.

I am so tired of people telling me that my safety always, always has to come last, because others are more deserving of it than me, and my experience can't be true, can't be real, I must be exaggerating the problem for some nefarious, bigoted reason. My fears aren't real, right? Women aren't attacked every day, right? So I should just shut up and put up with whatever other people want to do in my space, however unsafe it makes me.

Going wider, why do you think we have separate male/female changing rooms?

Kim, you aren't listening. I wasn't talking about banning trans women from changing rooms. I was talking about asking trans women who still have male bodies including male genitals (which is by no means all trans women) not to come into intimate women's spaces - spaces where women (of all kinds) are likely to be vulnerable, or feel vulnerable. There's a norm being created which says it's ok for male-bodied women to be in women's spaces, and I'd like that norm to be reversed. If you think many non-physically-transitioned trans women wouldn't be willing to respect that, that's a different matter.

And I notice you really don't appear to care in the slightest about the harm other women have suffered, or fear suffering in the future.

And yes, Kim, I do thing banning people (men and women alike) who have male genitals from women-only changing areas will make those changing areas safer. If I see a dick in the changing room, I am not going to stop and quiz the naked owner of that dick about their preferred pronouns to see whether I should be scared or not. I am going to run.