Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

Levianne - Nobody here is being mean or unfair. So what are you suggesting? We all only post comments that agree with Kim's view?

I feared my post would be leapt upon to accuse of victimisation. However as others have said anyone in an ill fitting costume should cover up. The interesting thing in this case is that no one said anything for fear of being accused as discriminatory I imagine.

That is a very unhelpful situation and will just make for a lack of tolerance

Kim, I am getting really tired of your false sense of being a victim here. The thread was not heading there except in your own head.

Grennie - no, of course not. Just noting that it would be a pity if the only trans woman (that we know of - other people here may be trans but not out as such) was encouraged to leave the thread.

So you do want people to only post comments that you agree with?

Kim - what, specifically, do you have an issue with? Nobody can address your complaint if you aren't saying what you have a problem with.

And conversations here lead where they will. If every thread on mumsnet confined itself to only exact replies to each OP who posted, I think it would be a lot less informative and a lot more boring here.

levianne - I am going to leave as I am getting tired of people misinterpreting comments.

Kim was encouraged not to read threads that are too personally upsetting. There are issues that are discussed on threads that are too upsetting for others including me to read. It is simply good self care not to read things that we know will be too personally upsetting because of the issues being discussed.

Grennie - that's fair enough, though I personally will miss your perspective, too.

but you can't just remain as you are in your male body and continue life as you did and say "I identify as a woman now".

Can I ask; why not?

If someone tells me they're a woman, or implies it in any way, it would be utterly baffling for me to return 'but do you have a penis?'

Did you see the Upworthy video A Girl Called Jazz?

I'm not sure which person in their right mind would say to that girl; 'I'm sorry, but you're not a girl, you're a boy.' She knows precisely who she is.

My two at 6 and 8 know that having a penis or a vagina is usually the first indication of what sex you are, but it's not as clear cut as that. If someone with a penis says that they are a girl, then they are a girl.

They also know that not all men are attracted to women and not all women are attracted to men. People are attracted to people (or not at all, which is also just a way to be).

That's pretty much where I left it, partly because I'm not completely clear on all of the issues myself. So I've found this thread interesting too - thanks all for your input.

Sorry I had to reply to above! The Girl Called Jazz is now saying s/he is detransitioning and becoming a boy/man.

Kim, why is it an "attack on transwomen" to talk about the very real concerns that some women have with not wanting to share space with people (men or women) who have penises?

And maybe the changing room thing keeps on coming up because it keeps on being an issue. If it wasn't an actual issue, nobody would mention it.

kim I really do feel sympathy with your position on this.

I however really welcome a discussion about the topic and strongly believe it will enhance my own understanding/tolerance and appreciation of being trans.

Lougle's remarks seemed like a smack in the face after a long discussion, however I hope and feel that she was expressing her own personal struggle with accepting the concept that just stating your gender preference means you can adopt that gender and use changing rooms etc It's often these issues that people struggle with.

I'd personally rather the thread is free to discuss openly rather than restricted. That doesn't mean an open day on attacking trans (I hope)

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your reports.

We'd just like to remind you that there's enough space on the boards for everyone to share their experiences and thoughts on an issue.

No one should feel hounded off the board for expressing their opinions, and we'd appreciate it if moving forwards people could consider how their tone might come across before posting.

This thread is a bit like the threads on domestic violence against women where a couple of men's rights activists join and start going on and on about some men suffering from it too.

This thread needs locking.

LookingThroughTheFog it's true that in everyday life, I really don't care what people have in their underwear - it really is none of my business.

It becomes my business when I have a reasonable expectation of not having to share an intimate space with people who have male bodies - whether that means men, or trans women who haven't physically transitioned. So, for example, if I advertise for a lodger for my spare room, I don't want anyone to share my home who still possesses a working penis, even if in every other way they are a woman. I don't see that this is unreasonable.

I guess we just see it differently, Levianne. I can't imagine what a woman might do with her penis that would make me uncomfortable in a house/changing room with her.

And that's fine, LookingThroughTheFog. If you are cool with that, then you wouldn't need to know. But it should be acceptable for me to say I am not cool with that, and I would want to know.

Male bodies, on average, are larger and stronger than female bodies (though of course there are plenty of exceptions). Rape is possible with objects, I know - but most rapes happen using penises. It's a question of relative risk.

It's not possible to have a thread about transpeople without mentioning the possibility of being raped by them is it?

I have to now agree that sadly this thread has degenerated and should be removed because it's offensive

Amy - nobody is hounding anyone off the thread. I really object to that accusation actually. This thread is civil and way more reasonable than many threads on some boards.

Oh ffs Tiggy - it's exactly comments like that which don't help.

Maybe you are in the very fortunate position of never having been a victim of sexual assault. If so, good for you, and long may that continue. Some of us are not so lucky. For some of us it matters a very great deal about the private spaces we inhabit being (for want of a better phrase) penis-free. It's not up to you to tell me that I'm making a fuss about nothing, because I'm not.

levianne - that's like suggesting men are not safe in a changing room in case another man rapes them. It is perfectly possibly to own a penis and not rape.

I don't wish to face the confusion of whether I'm undressing in front of a man who has chosen for whatever reason to invade the ladies changing area...or a MtF woman. That's a separate issue in my mind.

Tiggy: and for the record, I'd state that trans women who have physically transitioned should have the same rights as every other woman out there to have an expectation that, if they need or want it, to exclude people with penises (untransitioned women, or cis men) from their private spaces.