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AIBU?

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Question about gender change

999 replies

lougle · 06/04/2014 20:48

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

OP posts:
kim147 · 07/04/2014 23:09

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almondcake · 07/04/2014 23:12

Lougle, I don't mean that you can't understand what trans means, or some very common feelings that one trans group has and others than another trans group has. Of course you can by reading stuff online written by trans people, or by talking to trans people who are offering to discuss it.

What I mean is, if someone wants to be referred to as she, you don't have to question that individual as to what they mean, or have it mean what you mean by she to accept it. You can just think, there are different things people mean by that, and I don't have to know, or need to ask, exactly what this person means by it, unless they're my best friend or whatever.

You can understand and accept multiple different meanings, and believe them to be real, true and valid for different groups of people.

FrontForward · 08/04/2014 00:02

Kim I think this thread has been really helpful in terms of giving people some understanding but I get a sense that it hasn't pleased you - you feel it doesn't 'properly explain it'

It has really explained a lot to me. I get the fact that there are different viewpoints. Almonds last sentence at 22:47 sums up how I feel about the differing viewpoints. I respect yours and I respect that of others. You obviously and understandably feel that a viewpoint holds more validity being trans, however a lot of useful info has been shared on the thread which helps understanding. I'm glad that isn't suppressed so that only one view comes out

FrontForward · 08/04/2014 00:06

I also want to acknowledge that 'it's been really hard' bit. I'm sure it has and appreciate why a forum discussion about something you have lived can be pretty frustrating

almondcake · 08/04/2014 00:27

Kim, I also think you are really great at helping people who are trying to understand this, not just on this thread but on other threads you've been on too. I agree with FrontForward about the 'it's been really hard' but I do think you've changed people's minds lots of time and helped them find more tolerance and understanding, however slow that process must seem to you. I also think you're really well informed and interesting on other threads that are about other topics, particularly education.

lougle · 08/04/2014 00:45

Can you understand how confusing it is for the unaware, though? To make a mindset shift from 'male/female is what you are born as/with' to 'male/female is whatever it means to the individual and can be different for everyone' is a pretty massive leap and I struggle to accept that as a concept.

OP posts:
almondcake · 08/04/2014 01:50

Lougle, I would explain it this way, without using a trans woman as an example, because I'm not the best person to explain that.

If there is someone who has been pregnant multiple times and that has been very important to them, they might say that their experiences of pregnancy are what makes them feel like a woman. They feel their other experiences are just human experiences, but this one is what mostly makes them identify as a woman on the basis of biological sex, not gender.

To some other woman, pregnancy may be totally irrelevant (whether she has been pregnant or not). She may feel that what makes her identify as a woman is that she has been socialised as a woman and feels she shares that with other women.

To another woman, this socialisation is totally irrelevant. She may feel that she is innately feminine and likes quilting or floaty clothes or similar. She may feel that there is a thing called the female brain that is feminine, and she has one, and this is why she identifies as a woman.

To another woman, femininity is totally irrelevant. She has a very strong feeling that she should have a body that looks traditionally female (breasts, a vulva). If she had a body with a penis she would feel traumatised. Her identity as a woman is based on her feelings about the external signs of biological sex. She believes in the female brain in the sense that the female brain feels right in body that is externally typically female in appearance.

To another woman, the appearance of her body is irrelevant. She has a very strong feeling that she has an innate sense of being a woman, but she wants to be an engineer and feels a sexist world is putting up barriers. She believes in the female brain but in a more abstract way, not connected to the body or roles.

This is obviously a simplification as many women will feel a combination of these things. None of these women have to be trans women, but they all have different reasons for defining themselves as female. If one of us meets someone and they say they are a woman, we don't have to assume that pregnancy was massively important to them, or that they were socialised heavily as female, or that they are feminine, or that they have a strong feeling about the appearance of their body, or that they have a strong opinion on gender roles. We just don't make assumptions that all women are in some way the same and must agree to that and be that, simply because they called themselves a woman.

And some of these things are incredibly sensitive. Some people don't want to make a statement about gender, or femininity, or biological sex, or their fertility. Others can't avoid making a statement about one of those things because it is so obvious about them, or it would make them utterly miserable to hide it.

There are still structural problems and to resolve them we have to look at particular things and tackle them collectively - lack of pregnancy care, hatred of femininity, gender stereotyping and so on. We have to be able to quantify that X disadvantage happens to women or group of women Z, which requires particular definitions of what a woman is in particular cases. But on an individual level, there is no reason why all women have to feel the same way, or why I must insist that because I do or don't feel something, I am somehow invalidated if every other women doesn't admit she feels it too. And it is impossible to impose one set of feelings on everyone, because all of them are telling the truth about themselves.

fortyplus · 08/04/2014 08:05

I don't think anyone will ever be able to articulate this properly. I couldn't even explain why I like sprouts to someone who doesn't Wink

lougle · 08/04/2014 08:43

"We just don't make assumptions that all women are in some way the same and must agree to that and be that, simply because they called themselves a woman."

But being a woman is not a choice, surely? It's something you either are our you aren't. You can choose to become a woman (as far as is possible) or you can choose to live life as a woman, but you can't just remain as you are in your male body and continue life as you did and say "I identify as a woman now".

What makes me a woman is the fact that I was born with a XX chromosome and have female genitalia. My expedience of being a woman may be different to anyone else's, but we have that in common.

I've no doubt offended and I'm sorry, but can't accept that we must accept that someone is a woman if they choose to say so, or vice versa.

OP posts:
Grennie · 08/04/2014 10:26

I agree lougle that being a woman is biological. I certainly will never agree that an individual with a penis is a woman (75-80% of MtoF have their penis, and many have no intention of ever having surgery on it). But as you no doubt realise, this is a controversial issue. Of course it is perfectly possible to think this as I do, and still think Trans people should be treated fairly.

levianne · 08/04/2014 10:33

lougle I have a little bit of sympathy for what you are saying, but I think it need not be one size fits all.

Eg: if someone was raised as male, with all the expectations and privileges that means, and keeps their male body - ie doesn't take hormones, or have surgery - and then claims to be a woman, then, well, they are still free to live their life however they please, right up to the point it impinges on my life. Eg, I would not want their male bodies in my changing rooms or any other woman-only space. (It's a matter of safety as well as justice, since on average male bodies are larger and stronger than female bodies, and people socialised as male tend to have a stronger sense of entitlement.)

If someone has put the work in to give up their male privilege - they've taken hormones, or had surgery, or otherwise worked to actually transition in any meaningful way, then sure, I will welcome them as a woman in women's spaces.

Grennie · 08/04/2014 10:37

levianne - That is not the legal position in the UK. In the UK anyone who identifies as a woman, even if they have only started identifying as a woman that morning, should be "treated like a woman" by service providers. There are a few exemptions e.g. for religious organisations, but not many.

levianne · 08/04/2014 10:44

Grennie - I wasn't talking about the legal position, but what I thought should be the case. I don't want to, eg, share a hospital room with a stranger who still possesses a penis. (And thinking of, eg, school trips, changing rooms, and so on, I don't want any teachers, etc, who still possesses a working penis, however they identify, being allowed access to girls-only areas. In my DC's school, men supervise the boys' changing and women supervise the girls - as I suspect is the case in most schools.)

No penis = no problem!

FrontForward · 08/04/2014 11:56

I think tolerance and understanding work both ways here. I wouldn't wish to force a woman (MtF) to have to change in men's changing rooms because they might feel uncomfortable but nor would I expect to strip naked in communal changing rooms in front of someone with a penis. I think that would be very confusing for all (not least children)

I swim in a leisure centre with communal changing rooms and the showers are communal (swimwear expected!). I have met 2 MtF wearing badly fitting bikinis with everything outlined (in one case visible as the bottoms were so badly fitting. I don't wish to make anyone feel uncomfortable but was startled if I'm completely honest. I don't think that experience helps understanding at all

Grennie · 08/04/2014 12:04

FrontForward - I would hate that and tbh I think the staff should have intervened if anything was visible while wearing bikini bottoms. That is unacceptable.

kim147 · 08/04/2014 12:15

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

levianne · 08/04/2014 12:20

I don't think it's about what kind of costume you have, but more about everyone (whether trans or not) covering their genitals adequately in a public place. One rule for everyone. So, if a particular style doesn't cover your genitals, you switch to another style.

Grennie · 08/04/2014 12:21

Kim - You know we are not talking about that. I really don't care what anyopne wears. But wearing something that does not cover your genitals, is not acceptable.

kim147 · 08/04/2014 12:22

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Grennie · 08/04/2014 12:23

Then you are not reading what is being said properly.

levianne · 08/04/2014 12:24

kim has anything I've said made you think that?

Lovecat · 08/04/2014 12:27

Kim, I enjoy reading your posts and have learned a lot from them, but sometimes it feels like you're determined to be a victim.

How one earth did you make that leap? If a woman was wearing a swimsuit that was cut so small that it was showing her flaps it wouldn't be acceptable or pleasant to be around either.

Grennie · 08/04/2014 12:30

I agree lovecat. The reality is that there are issues discussed on many threads that will be upsetting to some women on here. I stay away from threads that I know I will find upsetting. Maybe for your sake you should too?

levianne · 08/04/2014 12:32

Grennie, I think it would be a shame if a trans women here did not feel able to post in a threat about trans issues. It ought to be possible for us to talk about this without it getting unbearable for anyone.

kim147 · 08/04/2014 12:34

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