Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

Several

Kim's experiences aren't less important than anyone else's. Kim's experiences are also no more important that anyone else's. Kim has repeatedly said that Kim doesn't use women's changing rooms because Kim would feel uncomfortable doing so. Whenever born women bring up the point that we don't want people with penises in women's changing rooms for very good reasons Kim just makes it all about Kim. Kim could very easily agree that men who have no intention of having their penises removed have no right to be in the women's changing rooms but instead Kim makes it all about Kim and Kim's penis.

Nursey women with PTSD don't typically ask people to tell them things they know will trigger their trauma, carry the discussion on and on and then imply that they might get suicidal if the discussion continues.

If you wish you'd not read the thread, why are you continuing it? This looks like another occasion of being told what we can and can't discuss and you haven't even read the thread.

I think Kim has every right to make it about her when she is part of a minority that people are being so negative towards.

I'm not telling you what you can and can't discuss, but it seems like people are telling Kim what she can and can't.

All this thread has highlighted is that prejudice against trans people is alive and well still today. Some of the comments were absolutely downright insulting yet were barely or not challenged. If things like that were said to another minority there'd be a shit storm. But it seems like trans people are open game.

If you're happy for men who have no intention of having their penis removed being in women's spaces then that's great for you Nursey. Unfortunately a not small proportion of women are not in that position. If Kim had agreed that men should not be allowed in women's spaces in case it hurt their feelings then that that would be fine.

Instead, Kim and Kim's supporters have shouted down women for daring to want the right to not have penises in women's spaces.

Nursey the vile insults from trans activists got deleted. There's still one on here from a woman dreaming of eradicating me. It's open season on women, just as it has always been, particularly if they voice their opinions.

Women with PTSD were told to get over it or go elsewhere and they were behaving like schoolchildren for not wanting penises in changing rooms. Is that okay?

One thing taht some Trans people don't acknowledge, is that there are a wide variety of Trans people with different views. There are Trans people who also agree that any MtoF who still has their penis shouldn't be in female changing rooms.

I hate the idea often put across by some, that their view is what Trans people think. Trans people are not a monolith.

The thing that I don't understand is that Kim has said that Kim agrees that people that have a penis shouldn't be in women's changing rooms but still argues agains women who think that people with penises shouldn't be in women's changing rooms are transpobic.

I think people are misplacing their anger, it's the owner of a penis not the penis itself.

I think it's horrible to insinuate that someone with a penis is some sort of sexual predator. Do people honestly think a trans person wants to show off their dangly parts, let alone use them in an abusive way?

It must be awful to feel like a woman, but being banned from frequenting the places women go because of the genitals I was born with. Being trapped in a body that doesn't feel right. Facing animosity from both sides. Where should they go then? If everything looks female except between their legs do you honestly think they shoul use male facilities? Do you even think it would be safe to do so? Don't you think they too may be open to sexual abuse? As a minority they're in a much more precarious position than the posters who don't want to see a penis in their changing rooms.

If someone feels like a woman inside, imagine how daunting it must be to change in a room FULL of men.

And the most offensive thing about this thread was those trying to discredit the trans need because theirs what... No evidence that is a real 'thing'? Why is that ok?! Would we do that to people who are gay? Would we say well we think you're faking because there's no scientific evidence that you're born that way...

There's*

Nursey are you really saying that born women must be OK with changing in a room with born men because a tiny minority of born men feel like they're really women? Are you really saying that the feelings of a tiny minority of men are more important than the safety of women? And are you also saying that that the feelings of born women are less important than those of the tiny minority of born men who think they are women? Are you seriously saying that? If you are saying that then do you really not understand why this is a feminist issue?

People who have a penis but think they are a woman have the option to not use women's changing rooms for the period of time where they are waiting for surgery. People who have a vagina and are therefore women have to use the women's changing room and have a right to without being exposed to male genitalia. Unfortunately, the number of born women who have been raped by men far out numbers the number of born men who feel like a woman really. While that is the case, people who have a penis should not be in women's changing rooms.

All Kim had to say was that Kim thought that people who had penises shouldn't be in women's changing rooms. Kim being Kim though and loving being the centre of attention decided to campaign for Kim's right to go into women's changing rooms despite not actually wanting to. Never mind the fact that men have used transgender equality laws to assault women - Kim's feeling are far more important because Kim has a penis and that makes Kim far more important than all of us silly women and our vaginas.

If someone feels like a woman inside, imagine how daunting it must be to change in a room FULL of men

Whereas if you actually ARE a woman inside, who gives a fuck how you feel about having to get changed alongside a man?

Right?

Silly you lollerskates - you forget that being born with all the requisite woman parts makes you less of a woman than someone who was born with a penis but feels like a woman.

Nursey asked, "Do people honestly think a trans person wants to show off their dangly parts, let alone use them in an abusive way?"

I mentioned upthread my cross-dressing ex. It was his dearest wish to show off his penis while dressed as a woman. There is a whole sub-genre of porn devoted to and celebrating "chicks with dicks."

I understand that a transgender person is not the same as a crossdresser, as their motivations are different.

But they look rather similar physically, and how would I, sitting in my "women only space", know whether the "woman with a penis" next to me is a trans*woman who feels like a woman and wants to use the women's facilities, or someone like my ex who actually is there for sexual kicks?

You can't with, but you're not allowed to question the person with a penis in case they're "a woman inside" and therefore are more oppressed than actual women.

Nursey why bother with changing rooms at all? Why doesn't everyone just get changed at the side of the pool / in the gym etc?

Do people honestly think a trans person wants to show off their dangly parts, let alone use them in an abusive way?

Are you seriously suggesting that no transwoman would want to show off their penis in a changing room? That no transwoman would rape or assault a woman? That is beyond ridiculous and demonstrably untrue. That no man would take advantage of this situation to access women's safe spaces?

As a minority they're in a much more precarious position than the posters who don't want to see a penis in their changing rooms.

What about the women who have been raped in bathrooms?

I am familiar with a women's shelter where none of the male volunteers who help the organisation have ever been inside the shelter and they don't even know where it is. Do you think they are bleating on about their offence at not being allowed into the shelter or the offence of being considered potential abusers? No, they are decent men who commit time and energy to helping an organisation for battered women and they understand that the safety and comfort of the women in the shelter are more important than any offence they might feel at being excluded from the shelter.

The most offensive thing about your position is that you are berating women who care about the safety of women over the striving of transwomen for validation.

Surely the changing room thing is a total red herring? It's division based purely on genitalia. So you go to the changing room that houses your particular type of genitalia. It's not a comment on whether you're a woman or a man or a trains woman or a transman or anything else. If you've a penis you go to the dick changing room and if you have a vulva you go the fanjo changing room.

There aren't many places where we segregate purely based on genitalia and those places where we do are places where genitalia might be seen. It's pretty puerile really, but I don't want to see a dick in the changing room I've gone into to feel safe because I have a vulva. This has next to no bearing on my views of transpeople and their rights. It's just a body bits thing and doesn't mean a woman with a dick isn't a woman. It just means she goes into the changing room, or the toilet, for people with dicks.

Incidentally I HATE this cis woman, cis man thing. It feels incredibly belittling. Is it just me?

I can understand using the trans prefix if you're talking about specific issues that relate to transition, and I'd expect than trans people themselves would be mainly the ones doing this. But other than that it's just men and women, isn't it?

It just feels a bit spiteful. Hard to articulate on an iPad. I'm sure someone more intelligent has done so somewhere on the internet though.

What I'm saying is women should have solidarity and if someone identifies as a woman but has a penis, I wouldn't force her to get changed in a room full of men. You wouldn't like it would you, as a woman? Because you aren't even willing to deal with ONE person who isn't even a man really but owns the genitals of one. Well imagine being born in the wrong body and see how hard it is.

Again I ask the question, a trans person who looks exactly like a woman except the penis. You really think she should go in the men's? How is that going to work? Do they have to flash our bits on entry? Because I can't honestly say I'd even notice what someone had between their legs.

And no I'm not saying trans cant be sexual predators, but I'm damn not listening to people trying to ostracise them because they might be.

We have to call born women cis women because otherwise it devalues the trans experience. Or something.