Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

Kim I'm so sorry that you face such animosity and difficulty. I don't wish to sound patronising. I just don't know what else to say. Your words in the last few posts have made a big impact on me in appreciating what it must be like. I suspect that many of us are oblivious to trans who pass and thus focus on those who don't and who tbh behave oddly. I think the two men I met in the showers at the pool were confrontational, fairly aggressive in their behaviour (I've avoided describing one aspect of their behaviour but it wasn't normal social behaviour) and give people lots to fuel their fear. It's sad that that behaviour affects others who desperately wish to pass unnoticed and just live as the gender they believe they are

Kim - I think there's a lot we are never likely to agree on, but I wanted to just take a quick time out in this thread to say how much I appreciate that you are willing to stay here and discuss all this. I don't think it's been easy for many of us. There's a lot of hurt and memories that I suspect this has stirred up on all sides of the discussion.

(Deep breath: on with the thread!)

It might be a bit emotive but I think with the sort of man who is desperate to get into women only areas and show it off then it is a rape stick. Even if they never forcibly penetrate women with it they are using it as a source of power over women which is what rape is about. In the case of "transwomen" coming into women's changing rooms and showing off their penises the power aspect is that they've proven to the women present that they are powerless to prevent men coming into their safe spaces.

So yes, I stand by rape stick. And of course small children don't have rape sticks.

Kim - I'm so sorry that you've had to go through all that, it is awful. I don't think anyone here objects to you or is getting at you personally, because from everything you've posted you don't behave like that and are a decent person, conscious of other people's feelings.

You're not responsible or a representative for the more 'odd' or nasty behaviours of other transwomen, any more than I'd feel I was somehow responsible for the IRA when I'm a Catholic, or one of the Muslim posters on here be held responsible for 9/11 (extreme examples, but I hope you see the point I'm making - there are some unpleasant trans people out there but you shouldn't feel got at when people mention them nor have to feel you should explain/defend them).

I'm sorry if that's a bit garbled, I hope you get what I'm fumblingly trying to say... :)

I do not recognise these descriptions of trans women "showing off" their "erections" or throwing hissyfits* in public places. I'm led to believe that a male-bodied person who takes oestrogen would struggle to maintain an erection at all, much less be capable of showing it off.

I do see a lot of angst about pronouns and forms of address (mostly on Twitter) and I see a lot of anger around cis women only space, but as it's all internet based I have no idea whether the people involved have a five o clock shadow or not. A lot of them self-identify as cis women.

The only credible threats or actual attacks I've ever had have been from cis men.

[*I note that no woman is ever too manly to be attacked with a gendered slur, though. "Hissyfit," really?]

This and this is the sort of "transwoman" I've been referring to and by no means do I think that Kim is the same as him because she's trans. I apologise if that wasn't clear.

I have absolutely no experience or awareness of FtM trans. None whatsoever, so either they pass better or are not so confrontational with it. It's interesting that no one is discussing FtM in male changing rooms. I suspect the dynamics are different.

I can so both points of view and just get cross with the posts which negate other peoples experiences. I have experienced aggression and confrontational behaviour from cis men and trans women. It's not acceptable that anyone should tell me that I'm making it up. Tackling that aggression against women (because it very definitely is against women) is important.

TW: rape, child abuse, transphobia, murder

FWIW, it has been pretty convincingly argued that Brandon, the person depicted in Boys Don't Cry, rejected their male identity not long before they died, and that their presentation as male was an attempt to survive in a culture that punished lesbianism and femaleness even more than it punished gender non-conformity: www.triviavoices.com/the-inconvenient-truth-about-teena-brandon.html

Well, no it isn't - it's utterly horrific whether Brandon was murdered for being trans or for being a lesbian. But just as it's important to acknowledge someone's identity when they are alive, it's important to acknowledge it even after they die, no? I don't think we will ever know what was in Brandon's heart, but if we are going to talk about them, I think we should nod toward their story not being quite so straightforward as its been depicted.

Brandon Teena did not reject his male identity before he died. He came out to his girlfriend. Totally different thing. I don't really want to read any more of this thread. Kim, well done for sticking with this. I honestly think the hang ups here are transphobic, not penis phobic.

I shall repeat again. The changing room issues is a moot point. If anyone is suggesting that men looking to rape and assault women in changing rooms use cross dressing as a means to go about it they are being fucking ridiculous. Sorry but get a fucking grip. Did deep you prejudice people, who else do you not want to share a changing room with? Honestly? The penis wielding nonsense is just a bloody acceptable excuse for your prejudice.

Come on beanella - even Kim says it's not for men to show off their penis in the women's changing room whether they are trans or not.

Beanella - agree with everything you have just said. And Kim, I am amazed at your composure in the face of some really disgusting transphobia on this thread. I see the terf element on mn is alive and kicking.

I feel wholly unqualified to comment on this thread - as the majority of this discussion is being conducted by posters much more eloquent and knowledgable than i.

I'm reading this with interest, and learning allot, but i would like to add my gut feeling at this point. I am a woman with no particular agenda, prejudice, past trauma or axe to grind and i feel that being told to 'get a fucking grip' about being uncomfortable about a man using a designated female only space is not really addressing those deep seated concerns now, is it?

I've been around long enough to know that the average silent perhaps uneducated (call it what you will) view is often the majority one. I recon most women would be uncomfortable with men in their changing area. For me it's not about 'transphobia' or 'prejudice'. It's just a simple i don't want a bloke in the changing area when i'm getting my kit off' thing.

I'm completely stunned by this thread. I thought that someone was transsexual they would not like their body, have surgery and try to pass. Not just identify as a woman, keep their penis and feel completely ok with being nude with female strangers.

Just WHY do you insist that women must be ok with sharing changing rooms with, not trans women who have had surgery, but male-bodied people who have intact penises?

And that we are prejudiced if we don't want this? Wtf. Yes I guess I'm prejudiced against male bodies. It's called culture...and PTSD.

As I've said before I've pretty sure someone who was uncomfortable with their body pre-surgery wouldn't want to show it off anyway?

Also if we see someone who looks just like a man and has male genitals how are we supposed to know that they're trans and not some fetishist (like the poster's partner who liked to dress up like a woman in public) anyway?
YABVU.

And Kim, by way of challenging views and making people think - just one of you measured and calm posts here is worth a hundred of the effin, blinding, prejudice screaming posts from others.

I don't think it's all TERFism, tibby - Hanlon's Razor and all that - but also look at the media images of trans women. A lot of the mainstream media projects an image of trans women as hyper-masculine (the "trucker called Dave" type article) who are to be mocked for thinking they could pass as women, and yes, those unfortunate individuals are going to have a hard time in any changing room.

However, if Paris Lees or Jenna Talackova or numerous others walked into a changing room, nobody on this thread would bat an eyelid because they wouldn't have a clue that there was a scary scary trans woman in 'their' space. Those women get much less mainstream press attention, so is it any surprise that people who perhaps have never (knowingly) met a trans person assume that all of them are "men in dresses with penises" given that that's how the press portrays them?

I recon most women would be uncomfortable with men in their changing area. For me it's not about 'transphobia' or 'prejudice'. It's just a simple i don't want a bloke in the changing area when i'm getting my kit off' thing.

Yes. And there are many who would be particularly disturbed by this, such as girls going through puberty and Muslim women.

There sexuality relates to whoever they want to!!!!!

Also, I'm not sure whether threads like this actually help anything. Reading through, it would be easy to get the impression that no British swimming pool is complete without an erect penis being brandished by a nefarious pseudo-transsexual in the ladies' area - whereas I have yet to hear ANY report of a trans woman sexually assaulting another woman in a changing room or loo in the UK (compared to lots of reports of cis men assaulting women in such areas having just walked straight in.)

I think someone found two examples upthread which were from Toronto where the law is different and one of those referred to a cis man anyway.

I fully agree with everybody who says that we shouldn't have to deal with erections or displayed penises in the ladies' loos. So its' a good job that it happens rarely if ever. As ever, anybody with a search engine is welcome to find the evidence that this is a problem. I have no doubt that any case which found its way to court would be attractive tabloid-fodder and would be swiftly reported.