Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

I think there should be more cubicles in the same sort of places you get disabled loos that anyone can use and anyone who hasn't fully transitioned has to use them. Same for changing facilities

I personally don't think it's fair for transgender women, even if they're post op, to play sport against cis women as they will have the major physical advantage of having gone through male puberty and so will be taller and stronger than if they were born a woman.

I don't think transgender is biological except maybe in a small number of cases. I'm sure it's down to social conditioning in the vast number of cases.

From the sounds of it you're probably doing all you can do Kim. Making an effort to pass, not using female only facilities when there's an option and when there is no option not acting like you have a god given right to be there and fuck everyone else.

Kim, there seems to be a basic incompatibility with what some trans women want - which is to be treated exactly as non-trans women, whatever the state or stage of their transition, and I don't know how far you want this, too - and what women like me are saying, which is there should be some spaces where women (of all kinds, including surgically transitioned trans women) should have a reasonable expectation of not encountering people who have male genitalia.

My base line is, as I've said over the course of the thread, is that I don't require of anyone (male or female or neither, trans or not) that they present in any particular way, but that if they have a working penis, they should stay out of spaces where women are vulnerable for any reason.

In practice, I do understand that this would create a need for a different space for those trans women who would not be safe in male spaces (though as others have said, it wouldn't be a problem for those in transition who spend some time in their lives living as men, and some of that time living as women, as they could just go in the men's sections of wherever when they are male-presenting). But the huge, huge number of women who would find it impossible to cope with encountering surprise!penis in women's changing rooms (or hospital rooms, or wherever you encounter stranger's bodies, or are made vulnerable with your own body) should not have their needs overturned because of a relatively small number of trans women who for whatever reason choose not to have surgery, or who have not yet had it.

What's your preferred solution, Kim?

"The reality is there are very few transwomen out there." - that's our point right there. It seems wrong that 50% of the population should lose out because of a tiny minority.

Did you really expect to transition and then have a completely normal life as a woman afterwards as if you'd never been a man? Life is full of either/or choices (especially if you're a woman) and this is one of them. The safety and rights of women should not be the price of your happiness.

I don't think that transwomen pose a threat to my safety if they've had full surgery but 80% of transwomen have a penis. I've learned the hard way that people with penises do pose a threat to my safety though and I don't want them in women only facilities.

So you're happy to say that if someone has a penis then they're a man? I think we've been arguing at cross purposes here then. Unfortunately a large proportion of "transwomen" have no intention of having full surgery and it is those people who we don't want in our facilities.

Unfortunately as a consequence of giving rights to genuine people like you who are so sure they're a woman that they're willing to have their penis inverted we have a whole load of men who have jumped on the bandwagon and are trying to invade female only spaces while still in possession of a rape stick.

I got it more clear in my mind with Hayley and Roy in Coronation Street. I know it's only a soap and not real but neither of them are gay although Hayley was originally Harold.

QueenStromba I've seen that "80%" figure bandied about quite a lot, mostly on trans-critical feminist sites, but the only source I've ever seen for it is a US source for trans men, who are less likely to have bottom surgery because the process is more complex and often unsuccessful, and in the US there is even less funding than there is here.

I believe it is untrue that 80% of trans women in the UK have a penis, I think that is a borrowed figure from trans men in the US. I'm happy to be corrected if you have a source though?

People can sexually assault without the use of a penis
Possessing a penis does not make a trans woman a threat, any more than any other woman is a threat.

a rape stick

Fucking hell. That's an awful way to describe someone's body part. Do you think that little boys possess a rape stick? Honestly, it's not healthy to be so fixated on the penis as a threat. It's the person who is the threat, not the body part.

Kim, I don't know you, but I very much doubt you are a danger, which is exactly what I'd say about most other people I have encountered online, whatever their gender. The thing is nobody has any way of knowing who is or is not a danger when they meet them in the flesh, so if I am changing for a swim and there's someone there who has male genitalia, I have absolutely no way of knowing if they are there legitimately, what their intentions are, or anything. And because we are both likely to be naked, it's the worst possible moment in which to try and find out (even for those people who don't have a panic response).

I'll ask again: what would be your preferred solution?

The 75 - 80% is on an NHS website. That is where I got it from.

Are you able to point me at it, Grennie?

The only thing I can find is this US study, which says that 20% of MTF respondents had had surgery, 60% were waiting for it, and only 20% didn't want it, and that was in the context of the USA where insurance doesn't cover it.

Ehric you don't get to decide other women's opinions about male body parts. If you are cool with them, great. Other women may have very good reason not to be.

And yes, of course, women (and men) can be raped with objects as well as penises. But most rapes are done with penises, and it's pretty disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise.

I'm happy that since you're waiting for surgery and you actively avoid changing rooms that you aren't a danger. It's the men that have no intention of ever having the surgery that are a danger and unfortunately you can't tell the difference from looking at them (although I imagine they'd be a lot more "man in a dress" than someone who is making a big effort, taking the hormones etc).

Unfortunately the most vocal transactivists seem to hate women and want to grind down the rights we fought hard for. I think the genuine transwomen just want to keep their heads down, cause as little fuss as possible and try their hardest to pass. The vocal transactivists want to put on a dress and make everyone pretend that their five o' clock shadow doesn't exist then throw a hissyfit when someone calls them sir or show off their erection in the women's dressing room and shout transphobia when someone objects. This is bad for both women and transwomen who just want to be accepted.