there is way too much pressure to EBF?

[ArtFine]

Just that really.

I've had a difficult journey with BF, and when I look back I know it would have been better and much more healthier for my baby (forget me) if I hadn't breastfed. She has CMPA and other allergies (and had awful silent reflux etc), and this would have been picked up very early on had she been bottle fed, and saved her a lot of pain and tears.

Why is there so much pressure to EBF? Why is it always assumed that breast milk is THE best?

What's the harm for example in giving one bottle of formula per day so that babies get used to the bottle?

myrubberduck, thank you and yes she was, very severely. Our consultant (who is lovely and very supportive) was furious when I told him so he stepped in too.

"you're stat twisting and scaremongering again."

I'm not 'stat twisting' - I have given the exact figures and the stated reduction in risk supposedly afforded by breastfeeding. That means that every person who reads it can make up their minds for themselves how they feel about it - whether that feels like a significant factor or not.

There is nothing 'scaremongering' about this.

One baby this week died while being carried in a wrap sling. It has made all the newspapers.

A few years ago 4 babies died in an Infantino carrier and the company stopped selling it. It made all the newspapers here and in the US.

Is this news 'scaremongering'?

Is letting women know that there have been a tiny handful of deaths associated with using these carriers 'stat twisting'?

Is it 'stat twisting' and 'scare mongering' to tell people to watch their children when they are playing out because 5 children (approximately) are snatched and killed by strangers every year in the UK?

Is it 'stat twisting' and 'scare mongering' for the DOH to change the recommendations on making up infant feeds because of the deaths of 5 babies in Europe - not all in one year - from a rare bacteria e-sakazakii which has been found in batches of powdered formula (along with salmonella)?

6 infants died in China from melamine contamination in formula in 2008, and it caused a shortage of formula in the UK as massive amounts started to be bought and shipped to China for parents who'd lost faith in the locally made product.

According to this UNICEF report breastfeeding or giving breastmilk would prevent 361 cases of NEC in premature babies in the UK - a disease with a mortality rate of 15% to 30%.

Is drawing attention to baby lives saved by breastfeeding in the UK is 'stat twisting'?

"However it also claimed reduced risk of obesity type two diabetes high blood pressure and higher intelligence all of which have been comprehensively disproved in recent years."

Actually you are wrong that they have been 'comprehensively disproved'.

There has been debate and there have been conflicting studies. The establishment has not yet reached a firm conclusion, particularly on the matter of intelligence. All the studies on intelligence and breastfeeding have been flawed by not having a big enough sample size of babies who have been long term breastfed. This is also a problem in most poor quality breastfeeding research - not enough control for dose. In a recent study which was trumpeted all over mumsnet as 'proving' bf is pointless (not actually the conclusion of the research itself - it said nothing of the sort, but it was interpreted here as saying this) babies were categorised as 'breastfed' if they were actually almost fully ff, as long as they had had at least one breastfeed at birth.

Spoke too soon.
Why do all threads about this go the same way?
If we are all scratching each others' eyes out rather than pulling in the same direction - thriving, healthy children regardless of bf/ff - proper and full support for ALL MUMS will never happen. Sigh.

Well I am not going to play top trumps with you regarding what has an what has not been proved or disproved. Suffice to say that what I posted earlier is an accurate description of the current state of medical knowledge in my view.However Surely it is right however that the NHS ought not be telling expectant mothers that bf will protect against, obesity for example, if the evidence is unreliable, andm given that this is what is happening, surely one has to ask why?????

NHS likes to use the stick when it comes to bf because it is concerned that the carrot ( free, convenient, modest health benefits) will not be enough to keep a lot of women going through the cracked nipples and exhaustion etc. of the early weeks of bf.

It doesn't work of course. Most women still stop bf after the first few weeks just feel bad about it because of the 'information' they are given by their HCPs prior to birth.

Isn't there plenty of advice on the formula packaging?

NHS likes to use the stick when it comes to bf

What stick? What penalties are imposed on women who ff?

NHS likes to use the stick when It comes to breastfeeding
What stick?
If the carrot is being informed about how and why bf is beneficial to a mother and baby, what's the stick?

Um the insinuation that a mother who does not bf is damaging her child's health... seems like a fucking great big stick to me....

But I am not at all surprised, given your posts up thread, that both of you would fail to appreciate this !

The stick is an insinuation?

So the NHS shouldn't be allowed to point out the health benefits of bfing for mother and baby because the flip side is that a mother who doesn't bfeed may feel guilty for not bestowing those health benefits on their baby?

I don't think it is the fault of the NHS. It is not as if the posters read 'more ff babies die of SIDS' is it? That would be the NHS using a stick. But they don't. You just choose to twist a positive message into a negative one.

The NHS also point out that eating 5 a day is good for your health and reduces risk of various diseases.

My DS is a fussy eater. He has no hope of eating 5 a day.

I don't go round berating the NHS for publicising the health benefits of fruit and veg and suggest that with their fruity posters and leaflets they are punishing me for not somehow force-feeding it to my DS.

That would be bonkers.

Um yes, bonkers indeed.

Accusing the NHS of "insinuating" that a mother who does not bf is damaging her child's health makes no sense. Its the same guff that ppl still come out with about smoking/ passive smoking/ smoking around children. It is not appropriate for information to be hidden that could significantly benefit people's health, especially children who can exercise no personal choice, just because it gets people who don't follow advice all puffy and defensive. If you think that bf has no significant benefit then don't do it. No problem is there. One can't possibly feel bad about doing something that makes no difference surely.
My DS received a small amt of formula at the behest of maternity staff. It was not my choice, I should have fought harder, but was a bit knocked out by such an awful birth and his subsequent injuries. Still, I can't deny that it would have been better for him not to have had it. The information shouldn't be kept quiet just because it upsets me, because it could benefit another baby if their parents understand it.

Btw I do get that lots of women have a tough time with bf. poor advice, tongue tie, family pressure, society's negative view of bf (especially in public), embarrassment......
I think its awful that some ppl have stopped bf when they really wanted to do it because the right support wasnt available. And I don't think ppl should feel guilty for their feeding choices.
But informing people about the benefits of bf and encouraging them to do it is not synonymous with making mother's feel bad about not bf. it just isn't the same thing.

There are plenty of people who freely chose to FF having never wanted to BF, despite BF being better for baby and mum. I'm sure they never feel guilty about their choice. There are also those who end up FF, whether exclusively or in combination with BF, not by choice

Guilt may well come from within as previous posters have said. I'm no expert but I reckon that it's also a response to feeling that you've done something bad (or even just less good) and when BF is widely acknowledged as being better than FF is it any wonder that those who 'fail' to EBF successfully (as opposed to electing to FF) feel some guilt, in cases, extreme guilt? Acknowledging that would be the first step to reducing the hurt and guilt felt by 'failed' breastfeeders when they hear over and over that BF is best. That's not to say that the BF message shouldn't be given, but just that it cannot avoid risking causing hurt to those who want to EBF but don't manage to.

The info(such as it is) shouldn't be kept quiet but it should be kept in perspective when comparing it to other parenting choices which have a far,far bigger impact on future health and development.

A diet rich in vegetables,a decent nights sleep,exercise,reading,limiting screen time,teaching key skills before school,modelling good behaviour,limited red meat......will all have a far bigger impact.

Bfing doesn't even ping my guilt radar in comparison.My dc are 10,10 and 9 now a few bottles of formula are of zero consequence.They've lucked out in plenty of other areas that are far more important.

I agree retro.

Where did the OP go btw?

I remember when I was really struggling to feed DS and was talking to my GP who said that the issue isn't necessarily getting women to bf, it was supporting women through it, which I agree with.

It's down to luck in hospital if you get help on feeding. Depends on the midwives, how busy they are and how informed they are. Like I said previously, I got an HCA who told me to 'just put him on'. They were too busy to help.

I had to research information myself about bf support until I happened to see a mw who referred me to their bf clinic. But I was never told in hospital that this existed.

I really hope I can bf dc.2. DH says he'll happily pay for a lactation consultant if it means I can feed.

As part of my job I have to ask new mothers if they are breast or bottle feeding and I hate having to do it. I very often see this momentary dread in the eyes of the mothers who say they are FF - it's like they automatically assume they are going to be judged for it. The breast feeding mother's always have a smile on their face and an upbeat tone when they answer me though.

The whole thing is bizarre - I have no idea where it originates from but I do feel that in some circumstances FF mother's are made to feel bad about their choice, or they perceive themselves as being judged negatively.

When I saw my baby being given formula in hospital I absolutely hated it! I just sat there and cried my eyes out whilst it was being done. I absolutely know that formula isn't poison but at the same time I hated seeing it being given to my baby and I hated myself for allowing it to go ahead. Where does that level of hatred and anger come from?? My reaction really surprised/scared me!

The info provided to pregnant women/new mothers has to be relevant to their situation. There's no point in telling a woman who has just given birth about limiting screen time, or presenting bfing as some sort of carbon-offset scheme (it doesn't matter if you don't bfeed if you tick the 5-a-day box later on).

Formula advertising is on all the time. In comparison, bfing info is only given to a narrow group of people in a very limited time period.

Unfortunately that narrow group of people is also experiencing a time of their life when they are potentially exhausted, hormonal and not especially rational. This may account for some of the overreaction.

But the information is in perspective when it's given. Facts are offered.
It really would make no sense to discuss all the other factors that impact on health during an antenatal class/ midwife visit would it?
Who would suggest that a new baby should have a diet rich in vegetables?
Information needs to be appropriate.
When a GP recommends someone stops smoking are they expected to offer comparative data on the death rate reduction of safe driving/ wearing a seatbelt? no. That would be ridiculous.
Really, what this boils down to is that lots of ppl just don't "buy into" the idea of breastfeeding. Human milk is still seen as a bit of a non food item. It's a bit yucky, so many people dislike seeing women breastfeed. Which is why a law has to exist to protect babies. There is actually a law in place with the objective of not allowing ppl to stop a baby from receiving its own mother.'s milk. It's lunacy. Is there any law that says a baby must be allowed to have its formula? No. Why? Because ff is not taboo. It's bf and bf babies bf that have the hardest time in the uk.
The formula companies have done a great job at selling their product:
It doesn't really matter.
"You're doing ok."

I honestly don't believe that ppl are "made to" feel bad. I think they feel bad for a variety of reasons.
I felt as you describe when my ds had formula in hospital. Not because someone had made me feel guilty about the formula, but because deep down, I knew it wasn't right for him and I felt powerless to stop it.
Many of my friends have ff. all of them so that they could enjoy some feeding fom or extra help with their baby. That's a fair choice to make but it's unreasonable to domain that you are made to feel bad just because the current facts that are known about bf are mad available. Or that a hcp tried to encourage a healthy choice.

But is the law working? It would seem not. So, what else do you propose?

Well yes it is working to a great degree.
What do you mean what else do I propose?
Now a woman can bf her baby in public. The point is that the law is required because we live in an anti bf society.
So a bit of promotional work around bf targeted towards ppl having babies (and therefore in a position to bf) is hardly "pressure" it's seen as such because of our negative view about bf.
I suppose I would propose more encouragement and support to help ppl bf. but that would upset too many ppl who don't want to.

A 'Gisele Bundchen' style-law as recently seen in at least one country...

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/uae-law-mothers-breastfeed-first-two-years