there is way too much pressure to EBF?

[ArtFine]

Just that really.

I've had a difficult journey with BF, and when I look back I know it would have been better and much more healthier for my baby (forget me) if I hadn't breastfed. She has CMPA and other allergies (and had awful silent reflux etc), and this would have been picked up very early on had she been bottle fed, and saved her a lot of pain and tears.

Why is there so much pressure to EBF? Why is it always assumed that breast milk is THE best?

What's the harm for example in giving one bottle of formula per day so that babies get used to the bottle?

I felt the opposite, I EBF ds until he was 6 months and I still breastfeed him now and he is 15 months and I am pregnant.

People constantly said to me when he was around 3/4 months "poor baby, he must be hungry!" or they tried to give him banana or suggested a bedtime bottle feed.

Even my hv said I should give him porridge before bed. Ds was huge, rolls and rolls of chub on his legs, he was a very happy baby.

Now people keep telling me I should stop feeding ds, even my midwife said I should stop.

I was proud when ds turned 6 months and I looked at him and his huge chubby legs and cheeks but no one else was impressed or interested, no one else nitoced.

I can't see where this preasure is coming from.

"EBF means baby can't be left with other people for long periods of time, or even short periods of time"

I beg to differ.

I went back to work when my exclusively breastfed baby was 5 weeks old. Only part-time mind, three 6 hour days a week. But I managed.

Most mothers around the world breastfeed. Many can't afford formula. Those that can't afford formula also tend to be those on miniscule incomes with no support from the state and larger families than we have here in the UK. These women HAVE to find a way of breastfeeding, despite having also to work in the fields and having physically very hard lives.

"I will say no more they were smug, judgemental, worthy, hairy-legged, sandal-wearing, pasta-knitting bitches"

Why is it acceptable to be so vicious and bitchy about other women? I didn't do NCT classes myself but I have helped organise NCT activities as a volunteer. If NCT groups consisted mainly of working class women would it be acceptable to describe them as a 'scruffy, tattooed bunch of Greggs sausage roll eating, faked tanned, ignorant bitch chavs?' Or are educated women fair game? The women I meet at NCT get togethers come from a range of backgrounds - but they are mostly educated. Hence most start off breastfeeding. Many, probably most who have babies over a few months old, mixed feed or bottle feed. A good number have experienced PND, which is why they attend NCT groups in the first place - because they're lonely and they need friends.

Shame on you Punk.

Yes, honeymoons and hen weekends. That's why I didn't breastfeed Nothing to do with blood loss, being horribly anaemic, recovering badly from a c-section and battling depression.

mini - your attitude to those of us with less than perfect breastfeeding experiences on this thread is far from supportive and is pretty disrespectful. I know what was said at the classes. I was at them, you weren't. I'm not thick and neither is my DH. We both wanted what was best for our baby - a baby we'd waited a long time for.

Just to remind you, as you seem not to have read my earlier post, I breastfed my baby until a few days short of their first birthday. Not exclusively due to weight issues in the first couple of months. I wanted to breastfeed - I'd attended two ante natal breastfeeding sessions and had bought nursing bras and tops. I refused pethidine in labour as I'd learned in ante natal classes that it could make baby sleepy and feeding more difficult. So I'm not sure why you imply that I secretly didn't want to BF and wanted someone to give me permission not to. Not true. What I wanted was for breastfeeding to be pain free. Not too much to ask is it? And I did ask for help at all the BF groups across my town and the neighbouring one. Breastfeeding was the one aspect of becoming a mother that I hoped to do naturally and successfully. I needed if to conceive which made me feel a failure and made me determined to have a drug free water birth. That didn't happen as I ended up in theatre after labouring for 3 days with only gas and air, refusing an epidural due to increased risk of interventions which could also make BF harder to establish. So, yes, I did want to breastfeed successfully but reality got in the way of my intentions as it did with the birth.

There is ongoing research which shows that women with PCOS - which I have - can often have either an oversupply or an undersupply of breastmilk. It is also widely acknowledged by HCPs that blood loss during childbirth can delay or inhibit milk production. In fact, a few people on this thread who had difficulty breastfeeding had a PPH, again myself included. At the birth review meeting at my local hospital the midwife readily acknowledged that my haemorrhage could have been the cause of my baby's weight loss and my subsequent feeding difficulties. It's a shame the midwives caring for me during the days in hospital after the birth took no particular action based on the haemorrhage and the risks to breastfeeding that could mean. I wish I had known myself that PCOS and blood loss could affect breastfeeding as I'd have been able to push for the right help if I had.

If I'm lucky enough to have a second child I'll attempt breastfeeding again. I'd like to have a positive experience. I know a lot more about the possible problems I may face and how to deal with them. For a start I'll be buying a supplemental nursing system in advance - something I think could have helped me but that no HCP ever suggested and I was unaware of until recently.

I really hope you're not a HCP or a BF counsellor. You seem pretty judgmental.

IVF not if!

"I know what was said at the classes. I was at them, you weren't."

What - the midwife told you that if you didn't breastfeed you WOULD get cancer?

Great post Stuck.

I'm not judgemental.

I acknowledge that some people have medical/physical challenges that make breastfeeding extremely difficult/unsupportable for them.

I've acknowledged that on this thread, yes?

Once again you seem to be translating what someone is saying into absolutes. It's not helpful.

"I wish I had known myself that PCOS and blood loss could affect breastfeeding"

Most antenatal breastfeeding classes are two hours long AT THE MOST.

They focus on educating expectant parents about how breastfeeding works and signposting them to support postnatally if they need it.

I'm sure that ALL breastfeeding education acknowledges that some women will struggle with breastfeeding, and will need support. There are dozens of things that can make breastfeeding a struggle - tongue tie, mastitis, thrush, prematurity, PCOS, thyroid problems. Do you really think it'd make a difference for the midwife to go into detail about each and every one of these in the short period of time they have to educate about breastfeeding? What bit of the class do you think the midwife should have left out to focus on breastfeeding problems?

Mini I am thoroughly impressed by your contribution to this thread, in particular your measured responses.
Just saying.
It's been a good read. Must go and bath the DCs.

No, ' you will get cancer if you don't breastfeed' weren't the exact words.

Exact words / absolute things that WERE said include:

• "BF babies don't get wind or constipation." Well mine got both. Horrendous wind and at best poo'ed every couple of days during the first three or four months, and with great difficulty. I now know that these were signs, along with other things, of a bad latch and insufficient milk intake. Again, no HCP at the time made this link, despite the baby's poor weight gain and my ongoing pain which I constantly told them about.

• "BF mothers get more sleep due to not having to make up formula and due to sleep inducing hormones released when they feed and can feed lying down." ??!! Totally. anecdotal evidence from even the most committed BF mums seems to be the opposite. I have friends who are still BF toddlers who still feed every two hours during the night.

• "BF doesn't hurt if you're doing it right. It may be uncomfortable in the first few days but that's all." Why then did BF hurt for me for months despite innumerable experts saying latch was fine and there were no obvious reasons for the pain?

There are no absolutes, I agree, so not sure why either BF or FF ever needs to be presented as being perfect / awful.

You seem v concerned - rightly so - about the global picture on infant feeding. Yes, if you're v poor with no access to clean water then formula really is dangerous but that's not the case in the UK is it?

Posted too soon. Re the cancer point, as I said it wasn't said absolutely but the context definitely overstated the extent to which BF could prevent cancer.

I didn't expect the ante natal classes to detail PCOS and blood loss risks etc re BF, no. You misunderstand me, I'm sure not intentionally. I expected the midwives and other HCPs - both in ante natal and post natal in terms of the PCOS and post natal in terms of the haemorrhage - to be aware of and take account of such things. They had my notes and, in terms of the blood loss - were at the event! Or is that too much to expect?

Stuckindamiddle

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Don't want to make this thread all about me, but I have PCOS and had to move from breast feeding - DS born with tongue tie, his latch was shocking.

I moved to expressing milk and giving him that but could never produce enough for a full feed so had to do some formula feeds (whilst pumping every single hour).

I wish someone had said to me that PCOS can result in under supply - I wouldn't have felt so shit about myself. I know my emotions are down to me, but they weren't helped by my ultra-pro BF'ing HV who did a slitty eyed stare and pucker mouth when she saw the tub of formula.

And Mini, where exactly do you live to have a 2 hour breastfeeding antinatal class? My BF class lasted 40minutes. You were very fortunate.

Monkeynuts. Are you saying that ff babies don't wake to be fed in the night? You are having a laugh.

Nevermind (sic) how that is for baby My ff children are fine thanks, see earlier post.

Are you normally this obnoxious? Maybe you should go and adjust your judgey pants before they end up gagging you (or on second thoughts, don't bother).

Mini, that was my experience of NCT at that time. I can't change it. They were vile and I refuse to pretend otherwise. If others have had a more positive experience, that's fine. I was a struggling first time mum, new to the area and they couldn't have been more unwelcoming and judgemental if they'd tried.

"both in ante natal and post natal in terms of the PCOS and post natal in terms of the haemorrhage - to be aware of and take account of such things."

Well not discussing these things with you as an individual is poor care. If you'd had caseloading care (ie from one midwife all the way through antenatally and postnatally) I suspect you would have experienced a more holistic approach to breastfeeding.

"Re the cancer point, as I said it wasn't said absolutely but the context definitely overstated the extent to which BF could prevent cancer."

Can you be a bit more specific? Did they say 'most' cancers are caused by not breastfeeding? (in which case they'd be over stating the role breastfeeding plays in preventing breast cancer). Or did they say 'breastfeeding could prevent a lot of breast cancer deaths? I don't think that's an unreasonable choice of words, given the latest reviews of the studies.

"Horrendous wind and at best poo'ed every couple of days during the first three or four months,"

Constipation is hugely over-reported in exclusively breastfed babies (I assume your baby was exclusively breastfed), mainly because stooling every few days instead of every day for fully breastfed babies once they're beyond the first few weeks is completely normal and not a sign of constipation except if the stool, when it appears, is formed and hard. The straining breastfed babies do before passing a completely liquid stool isn't constipation, even if they've been brewing the poo for five or six days or sometimes even more.

"BF mothers get more sleep due to not having to make up formula and due to sleep inducing hormones released when they feed and can feed lying down."

As you say, you can use anecdotal evidence in support of your views. Midwives advice on sleep and feeding needs to draw on the existing research evidence, which suggests that breastfeeding mothers do, on average, have better quality sleep than mothers who are bottlefeeding at night.

"BF doesn't hurt if you're doing it right. It may be uncomfortable in the first few days but that's all." Why then did BF hurt for me for months despite innumerable experts saying latch was fine and there were no obvious reasons for the pain?

"I now know that these were signs, along with other things, of a bad latch". But the midwife was right. According to you your baby had a poor latch and that's why you had persistent pain. The fact that this was difficult to diagnose doesn't put the original midwife at fault or make her wrong. It's completely sensible for her to say that pain is a sign that a mother's breastfeeding may need to be looked at by a HCP. If they told women that pain is common and normal and not necessarily a sign of a problem you can GUARANTEE that this would lead many women into a situation where they were struggling on at home with a tongue tied baby or with thrush for much much longer before seeking help.

"but they weren't helped by my ultra-pro BF'ing HV who did a slitty eyed stare and pucker mouth when she saw the tub of formula."

Or so you thought. in your anxious, exhausted guilty haze

FWIW my NHS BF class did cover mastitis, as in, you can get it if baby doesn't latch properly or you don't feed enough, the symptoms and the solution i.e. don't stop feeding and feed more from the affected breast(s).

"Mini, that was my experience of NCT at that time. I can't change it. They were vile"

Your comment down the thread about the appearance of these women suggests you're not averse to a bit of vile stereotyping and judging yourself.

Just to say, I did NCT classes and I can honestly (hand on heart) say that I have never knitted a bit of pasta in my life, although I do wear sandals in the summer and I must confess that I did struggle to shave my legs in the latter stages of pregnancy (shocking, I know...)

Mini. "So either your dp is a bit thick" - seems you too are not averse to a bit of vile judginess. Also, ff babies needing more gp appointments - mine never did (see previous post).

I've had people pass comments to me about why I should offer DS some formula and the two main reasons seems to be:

1. He will sleep better at night
2. it means other people can feed him so you can go out more.

When I asked them which of their reasons are of benefit to the baby as opposed to me they just go quiet. It usually brings an end to the conversation

mini - your attitude to those of us with less than perfect breastfeeding experiences on this thread is far from supportive and is pretty disrespectful.

Really?! I think mini has come across very well! non-judgemental and states facts rather than hysterical rants like some people on this thread seem to have adopted. I can't stand it when posters attack others because they don't 100% agree with them.

op yanbu

The reality is that the decision to bf or ff is very very unlikely to make any difference to an individual child. I would have less of an issue with the way that bf is promoted in western countries if that fact (and it is a fact )was made clear.