AIBU to ask why Christians seem to make everyone so angry?

[Bardette]

Any post involving Christians or the church seem to attract an extra level of venom from some and I wonder why?

They don't make me angry. To draw on another recent thread, I find it hard to reconcile intelligent, educated, normal people believing in homeopathy. Now replace homeopathy with religion.

Don't you know any intelligent, educated, normal people who are believers Havant? There are a fair few around. Always have been.

Because far more of us will have had experience with Christians and Christianity. More experiences means more of us will have had bad experiences that we wish to talk about. It's really no more complicated than that - those I know where the main experience is of other faiths are more open to discussing those. My main experience is with Christianity, Judaism, new age faiths, and pantheistic philosophy so those are what I talk about.

Personally, the thing that makes me most angry with how Christians are often discussed is that the horrid ones that we have bad experiences with are often dismissed as "not really Christian" even when it is the church and Christianity that gave them the power to do the horrible things in the first place. To me, it's turning a blind eye and refusing the fix things. I've also seen it in Judaism and new age faiths, but with them it's normally pushed onto 'yes, but that's a subgroup of us, we can talk about that' rather than the complete handwashing 'there not one of us because reasons." that I come up against again and again with Christians when discussing the systemic abuses of power and horribly experiences that I've had. It's very frustrating and nothing will get done until the fact that they are able to do these things because they are Christians within a community is recognized.

I don't have a problem with Christians being Christians obviously. What I don't like is when Christians try to impose their beliefs on me and mine. Which, sadly,whether they want to or not, they do.

Christians don't make me angry, but a certain type of Christian does make me angry and they are the ones who go around trying to convert people and shove their "message" through my letterbox. I have an old school friend on fb whose husband is some kind of missionary and goes to India every year on something she refers to as "crusades" . It pisses me off.

But I know plenty of "normal" Christians and they seem lovely enough.

It's they way that they seem to think 'not getting their own way written into the law of the land' is the same thing as being persecuted. (And their fifteen hundred year history of flat making up martyrdom stories to justify their religion has got so ingrained that it seems natural to them to assume that the slightest loss of privilege is the last step before they're all thrown to the lions.)

I'm not ramming it down anyone's throat but if you think I'm going to deny Christ just to get an easy ride from bigots like yourself you'll be disappointed.

What does that mean? 'Deny Christ'? Sounds like dogma to me, and if denying your christ means not being permitted to keep proselytising, then yes, I guess that's what you need to do.

And formerbabe most of the abrahamic religions are all about converting people, though Judaism really isn't.

By being a member of any organisation you are linked to its actions. The Catholic Church condoned, enabled and covered up the rape and abuse of thousands of children.

The Church of England remains so anti-gay that they insisted on it being illegal for them to perform a same-sex marriage (not they-don't-have-to but actually illegal).

If you're still part of those institutions you are condoning or excusing their actions. What would those institutions have to do for you to vote with you feet?

And don't give me "I don't agree with those things and nor do my lovely church friends". So stop adding you presence to the Church's congregation, stop throwing your money in the collection. Wringing your hands about the poor abused children and the poor gay people isn't good enough.

And, by the way, if you're about to say you're affecting change from the inside, you're not doing a very good job. These institutions are a disgrace.

There are some Christians I get annoyed with, the ones who don't realise the privileges they have and claim to be persecuted.

In this country Christians are not persecuted, making someone obey the laws about not discriminating that apply equally to all, is not persecution.

Having a say in every law that is passed is not persecution.

Being allowed to discriminate in schools is not persecution.

Having most of a country's bank holidays linked to your religion is not persecution.

It makes me particularly mad because there are Christians in the world for whom a trip to church may put their lives at risk, that is persecution, there are places where it is illegal to be Christian.

The other group are the loud ones.

I live in Wolverhampton, there are Sikhs, Muslims, Christians of many denominations and backgrounds, you can go to church on a Sunday and listen to an evangelical sermon in Italian or a different sermon in Welsh / Polish or Russian, and of course English.

Various groups often set up in town giving out leaflets and explaining their faith. Most of these groups prefer you to approach them and if they do try to give you literature are fine if you say, ' no thank you'.

But when it is a Christian group (and yes I know it is only some groups that do this) there is music, loud, very loud music. The local Greggs does not have a front door and the music is so loud you have to write you order on paper inside the shop.

If you dare to turn down a leaflet, or ask them to turn the music down you are told you are going to rot in hell.

I know many Christians would be appalled at that, and it is just a few, but it annoys me.

How dare you judge me?

I like real Christians, but can't stand the hypocrites, but it is not just Christians, I'd say all the religions have people whose beliefs just seem like a means of criticizing other people, rather than a way to hone their own conduct.

I am a Christian, my faith is mine and nobody else's. I have issues with those who try to change, or belittle, the beliefs of others or to push their beliefs on others. Be that Christians who stand on a street corner preaching to others or atheists who come out with comments like "no person with a brain would believe in a god who doesn't exist".

I don't agree with everything the church says and does. Being part of a group doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they say and do. I am a member of a voluntary organisation (not linked to the church) and I don't agree with everything they do but I agree with the main principle of what they do (and stand up and say when I don't agree with something).

I think the reason for particular dislike of Christianity is clear: familiarity breeds contempt. But there are other things going on too.

1. The average non-vexatious Christian just gets on with their life, and is therefore of no real interest to anyone. I imagine this is also true of moderate muslims. So, only the shrill voices get heard.

1. In the last decade, terrorism has been inspired by religion. Therefore, so the logic goes, all people who believe in God are potentially suspect.

1. Non-Christian religions are "ethnic" and therefore not quite fair game.

1. Increasingly, Christianity is being seen as a non-authentic import. Contrast modern recreations of paganism, which are "authentic".

1. A portion of the atheist lobby is keen on suggesting that but for religion, society would have been 21st century by the 3rd century AD. People's general sense of history is too lousy to see this is nonsense. There is no appreciation of how Christianity shaped laws and cultural norms in ways which we affirm now.

1. The churches themselves have become more shrill, as those who used to be a moderating influence no longer go to church.

1. The church - and I mean just about all church organisations got on the wrong side of the homosexuality debate. They should have been supporting acceptance right from the word go. Desmond Tutu is pro-gay, and I question anyone within or without the churches who has greater moral stature than him. But he was a complete exception. As a result, the Christianity got itself lumbered with the blame for homophobia, something that was much wider than Christianity itself.

I expect in a couple of generations, Christianity will be comparatively unimportant in most Western countries. My fear is that an awful lot of those countries' folk memories will be lost as a result.

I'm going to say that my absolutely best colleagues at work have always been Christians, even though I am not. I do have a strong moral code though.

What Mooseymouse said is so spot on, I'm going to repeat it

By being a member of any organisation you are linked to its actions. The Catholic Church condoned, enabled and covered up the rape and abuse of thousands of children.

The Church of England remains so anti-gay that they insisted on it being illegal for them to perform a same-sex marriage (not they-don't-have-to but actually illegal).

If you're still part of those institutions you are condoning or excusing their actions. What would those institutions have to do for you to vote with you feet?

And don't give me "I don't agree with those things and nor do my lovely church friends". So stop adding you presence to the Church's congregation, stop throwing your money in the collection. Wringing your hands about the poor abused children and the poor gay people isn't good enough.

And, by the way, if you're about to say you're affecting change from the inside, you're not doing a very good job. These institutions are a disgrace.

Christianity isn't the Catholic Church or the Church of England, though. It's much bigger than that: there are many denominations.

That was the point I tried to make earlier. Christians ought to be following the teachings of Jesus, who actually didn't have a homophobic or misogynist agenda and had nothing but contempt for the hypocrites.

There are many denominations in Christianity and they came about because groups of Christians disagreed with what the C of E or the Catholic church were saying and so left. People do vote with their feet. Unfortunately the media is dominated by the mainstream churches.

green, I don't understand the "though" in the last sentence of your post.

Do you mean, despite not being a Christian, you still have a moral code?

So you subscribe to the belief that only Christians have a moral code?

Collective Responsibility is a thoroughly unpleasant concept.

dione to whom was that post directed and what does it mean?

Bardette, every time congregations have voted with their feet to leave a particular church, it has been because the church they were leaving wasn't nasty enough. The Mayflower, let it be remembered, sailed to found a place where its passengers' brand of religious oppression would be legal.

Basically, until you vote with your feet to leave christianity, you're supporting the evil that all of christianity does.

You want another reason Christianity gets on peoples' wicks? All the 'no-true-scotsman' shit they come out with to demonstrate that the ones planting bombs, sending death threats, sending rape threats, and claiming to be persecuted when they have seats in the legislature as of right aren't true christians.

While, of course, insisting that all muslims are potential terrorists, because brown people.

I find most Christianity the most hypocritical of all religions - they seem the most active at trying to persuade people. Catholicism in particular seems to all be about control rather than spiritual support.

And the whole back story... Imagine having a drink with your mate Joe down the pub and he tells you his girlfriends pregnant - but he's never had sex with her. Are you going to say "wow..must be the son of god" or "must be the son of her yoga instructor". makes sense why they are so big on adultery.

Collective Responsibility is the concept of holding people responsible for the actions of others. Upthread some posters said that they hold all Catholics and CofE responsible for abuse perpetrated by some.

By that token, every voter in the UK should be held responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afganistan, for shipping children overseas to the colonies in the 1950s and for colonialism in general. It is a dangerous notion.

Except that we only have one government in power at any one time, so even if we vehemently disagree with what they are doing, all we can really do is protest (go on marches, lobby MPs, write to the press, etc.) and not vote for them.

Whereas there are lots of choices when it come to being a member of a particular church, including not belonging to one at all.

Dione, it isn't a dangerous notion.
It is akin to not buying South African wine during apartheid.

Many people changed their vote and resigned from political parties in protest to the wars because they didn't want to be aligned to an organisation that did things they were against. You can't resign your citizenship in the same way and that it a stupid analogy to make.

But someone that carries on going to church, giving money to church, calling yourself a member of that church, you are actively supporting what they are doing. You are propping up their ability to do those things. You are telling them 'I have no problem with the way you conduct your organisation and the things you are doing in the name of us as members of the church'

And when those things are rape, abuse, homophobia, erosion of equality, continuation of sexist discrimination and god knows what else the Catholic church, CoE and most evangelical churches stand for, then I will judge someone who attends those churches as an apologist for them, and someone who is happy with the continuation of those awful awful things.

I think you make a very good point Dione.