for not having taken non-talking almost 2 yr old to the HV?

[PuffyPigeon]

We don't have a two year check here. Dd is almost two and can't really say any words. The only words she has that everyone can understand is yes please and mama. She has 'words' for the dogs name, her siblings names and her dad but they're all pretty similar and sound little like they're supposed to. I give her lots of opportunities to speak, like asking would you like the red or blue cup and giving her time to respond but she doesn't. However, her comprehension is fantastic. I chatter to her all day long and she understands, agrees and disagrees in the right places and is never frustrated.

As it isn't causing a problem I wasn't planning to act, figuring one day she'll just pick it up and there'll be no stopping her but my friend thinks she's 'severely delayed' and I should get her checked out. Aibu?

I found the pointing thing to be a very accurate indicator but amazingly, one which the HVs I my area hadn't really heard of. (I learned about it on mn )
Although ds1 could point at 2yr it was far more half-hearted than ds2 who was frantically pointing by 11mths at almost everything he saw. It's like the index finger has a mind of its own and crucially, ds2 by about 13/14mths was looking back to check that I was looking too and could see what he was pointing at.

Ironically, ds1 had more speech at that age than his brother but ds2's communication was off the scale in comparison.

My ds2 is in many ways the complete opposite to my ds1. People who know them describe them as "like chalk and cheese". They both have ASD.

Ds1 was also good at hiding his problems with comprehension. If you said, "Get into your pushchair" he would climb in. It looked as though he understood perfectly. However, if you were to say "Pick up the pushchair", "Stand in the pushchair" or even "Throw the pushchair" he would still just climb in.

The only thing he had understood was the word "pushchair", and as that usually meant he needed to sit in it, that's what he would do.

Take her to the doctor (I found the HV pretty useless) just to be sure everything is fine.

DS wasn't saying a word by 18 months to he was referred to the hospital to have a hearing test. Even though it was obvious he could hear us, they have to do it in order to rule out any problem. It came back normal so they said to wait and see if he talks in his own time. At 2 years he was only saying "mama" so he was referred to the hospital for his 2 year check-up so they could decide if he would need speech therapy. By the time the appointment was organised he was almost 2 and a half and was saying "red, boo (blue), ack (black)" and could point out the correct colours and shapes when asked. So because his understanding was fine they decided he didn't need any further treatment or check-ups and just gave us some tips to encourage his speaking.

Two months later he was saying a few more words. He turned 3 last month and is a complete chatterbox and it's hard to imagine less than a year ago he only said a handful of words.

Don't know if it's been said yet, but how is your daughter's eating now?

One of my DGC didn't speak before 3 (at all!), and all sorts of things were suggested as the problem, inc autism. Not the case at all. But one question that was asked was about the types of food eaten (food issues from weaning!). Children need to chew so that it develops the correct muscles in the mouth to form speech - so we were told. Luckily, the only types of food liked were ones requiring chewing!
But if your daughter is still only on milk/soft foods that could be part of the issue.

There may not be a problem at all. She may be chatting away before she's three.
But it wouldn't hurt to check.

Non specialists?

What like my son's comm paed who said 'but the GP said he's a smiley boy'

Smiling, having a sense of humour, eye contact, pointing, waving are all used 'red flags' or pointers rightly or wrongly...

Red flags / pointers are ONLY helpful when seen a big picture..,

CHAT, ASQ, SOGS, PEDS, etc etc are all only helpful IF you take a full history and listen to a parent. I lack of pointing in a child that has suffered neglect for example is not necessarily a sign of pointing...
Or a child with a sibling with autism might need parents to be given advice to use groups, have some portage to improve their skills / experiences in play & speech.

But then I have a child who's lack of 'red flags' meant he wasn't diagnosed until he was 6 and missed every opportunity for early intervention... In fact even WITH a diagnosis I am STILL battling because of his lack of red flags...

Nothing to do with being told all his life, by settings that it's naughty to spin, stroke, lick, tap, hum, flap... Nothing to do with being bullied for having support because he looks normal. Nothing to do with teachers ignoring his statement because he laughs when it's appropriate to laugh...

Your red flags can take a running leap because they are destroying my child's self esteem and his need to be understand.

There is no quick tick list for anything - we all individual.

Sorry OP - I am derailing your thread.

I hope it works out. I can link you to those resources / studies - just send me a PM

Not sure smiling indicates anything, dayshiftdoris. In fact my ds1 was excessively smiley to the extent that it freaked me out. Ds2 on the other hand was a grumpy baby. Looking back there was the subtle difference in that ds2 smiled in response to appropriate stimulus such as someone else smiling or laughing whereas ds1 'just' smiled if that makes sense. Everyone commented on what a happy smiley baby he was but I was never told there wasn't an issue because he smiled.
He didn't reach out to grab stuff on his baby gym either which I rarely see mentioned as a red flag but yet was asked about by the paed. Ds2 was frantically trying to grab stuff by about 9 or 10wks.

northernlurker - if she has no concerns, why did she ask mumsnet?

dayshiftdoris - there is a difference between protodeclarative pointing - which has a fixed developmental timescale and can be measured/tested discretely than something like 'smiling' which is not. If it is delayed because it is part of a fixed developmental timescale the delay can often be significant. You said up thread that your child pointed at 2 - so they would have failed the CHAT screen - and therefore would have been in the 'at risk of developing a communication disorder' group. The screen would have served them well. I often wonder why it isn't used (too expensive probably to provide early services for everyone being picked up by it).

I don't generally see community paeds as autism specialists tbh. We have a very good paediatrician now who has done a lot of extra reading (I almost fell off my chair when she suggested PANDAS), but the first 3 I saw knew bugger all about autism. I think our current paed is very much the exception unfortunately.

Nancy I agree with you about reaching out - there's been research into it as well. And it does seem to indicate 'something' but is perhaps hard to measure. I was relieved to see the younger reaching anyway.

Anyway the point was I knew none speaking at 2 ds2 was not autistic because he was pointing with gusto from the age of 12 months & communicating very well indeed despite his lack of speech. I added him to the SALT list on his birthday, but didn't badger them in the way I would have had I thought he had a communication disorder & just sat and waited for the year on the waiting list until he was seen. We were doing our own speech work by then anyway and he was 'fixed' pretty soon after that.

Most speech and language departments have an advice line and you can self refer, so you wouldn't need to go through a gp or hv.

Google speech and language and your area and there should be a number.

Nurseries can often refer to SALT as well. That's how I referred ds2.

Saintly

Like OP we were not offered the 2 and half year check as it wasn't commissioned so he was never going to fail anything...

And whilst I agree that comm Paeds are not experts in autism in reality they are who are doing the ADOS for school age children with the Ed psych in this area...

There are MASSIVE differences in what you can access even within counties and across time... You can't say this would have been / could be done

Sorry Nancy it's the way I have written the sentence...

There is a perception that children on the spectrum are 'dead pan' with no facial expression or inappropriate facial expressions... Or that they don't smile or get a joke...

So if your child does those things then there are some people, even professionals who think they can't possibility have autism...

I am finding that it's a dangerous way to think....

I didn't say it would have been done (my younger 2 didn't have 2 year checks as they'd been scrapped). I'm just saying that no pointing by 18 months (& definitely at 2) would have me seeing the SALT ASAP. Because it is an important sign. If pointing was in place & typical then I wouldn't be in such a rush because I wouldn't be hugely concerned about a communication disorder but would still ask for a referral because then SALT would be in place at the right time to work on other less complex issues.

Yes, and there are some 'professionals' out there who think your child cannot have autism because he speaks. So you sit there as a parent wondering how can this person actually be qualified to make such a diagnosis when they don't seem to know or notice the difference between speech and communication.

Well, it's up to you. Personally though, I think that early intervention can only be a positive thing.

DD had no words at all by 18mo, so I had the HV refer her for a hearing test. Like you I was 99% sure her hearing was fine as she had great comprehension, but I just wanted to make sure. As I suspected it was fine, so once she had turned 2 and still wasn't talking I self referred her for SALT. You need the hearing test before you can refer as it's the first thing to rule out, and really this referral is the only involvement a HV needs to have in the process.

DD started SALT when she was 2.3 and it was fab. There was focus to begin with on Makaton, which she picked up quickly and helped with her frustration on not being able to communicate. Once she learnt to sign her speech took off too. She was signed off from SALT at 2.9 and she's now talking in full sentences at nearly 3 with a huge vocab.

She really enjoyed her sessions as well as loving the therapist - she still talks about her now. Perhaps she woud have started talking when she did anyway, but it certainly did no harm whatsoever.

at 20 months. dd hardly said a word. I was expecting to have to get her referred. by 24 months she was saying 250words... and has not stopped since.

whether you do anything depends on how close to two she is.

ds on the other hand was saying more at 22 months, but still max 20 words at 2 (supposed to do 50) though a lot more signs he had taught himself thanks to mr tumble. he was referred to salt.

whether you do anything depends on how close to two she is. Of things do not rapidly impreove after two then see the gp, a different gp to the last one.

My experience mirrors what birdmomma said: At 2 year check speech flagged (she could only say a couple of words but understanding good). Followed up by HV when she was almost 3 plus preschool raised it when she started, the two worked together to get her referred and she is now starting speech therapy. It is something you should follow up.

To answer the earlier poster - her eating is loads better now and she chews a variety of textures.

She makes animal/car/motorbike noises but some are pretty similar and I didn't think they counted as words?

Have made an appointment with the GP, but still feeling sceptical that they'll do anything. My other dd didn't speak at all for years as school and they dismissed it as 'settling in'

yanbu not to take her to HV, take her to the GP.

my dd3 was very slow to speak, i ignored it on the basis that all kids are different etc etc and she had huge problems. fast forward years of expensive private speech therapy and i sincerely wish i had just taken her to the gp the first moment i had a concern.

I have similar woriees about DS.

he's 20 months and all he says is "cat" and "mama". Hower it is clear he understands simple instructions and follows them. Eg "give this to your sister please", "find your shoes / coat and bring them to me" "put this in the bin please" "was your hands" etc. etc.

I am slightly concerned to be honest though the staff at his nursery kep reassuring me he's perfectly normal. I'm going to give it a couple of months then decide whether he needs any help

My DD2 was similar. I took her to the HV, she did a simple hearing test and said to wait 6 months.
DD2 started speaking more at home- by 2.5 she was saying the odd word to other children at playgroup but was just over 3 before she said anything to adults, like the playgroup workers etc. She struggled to pronounce words and often even I couldn't understand her. Her understanding etc was excellent.
At start of school nursery, so 3.5, I pushed almost immediately to get her referred (through the school) to SALT - took about 3 months to get her assessed.
My worry was frustration at not being understood. And starting school and struggling with phonics and learning to read. (This last thing is likely to be less of a problem than I thought it would be.)
After SALT assessment they decided it was delayed speech development. Her speech was following 'normal' development patterns but behind. And her vocabulary and sentence structure was advanced for her age. Meant she was trying to talk like a 5yo but with the pronunciation of a 2.5 yo so really hard to understand. She had SALT with the aim of speeding along normal development patterns, it took 18 months, until she was 6.
Now at 7 you can't shut her up and (apart from a bit lispy! - no front teeth!) her speech is fine.

She did have a few problems and got upset (like the time her teacher thought her cat was named 'yucky' (Lucky)). She also got moved up a reading group as her speech improved, hard to assess someone's reading ability if you can't understand everything they are saying.

I would recommend you get her on a list as soon as possible. As it is DD is fine, but I think if she hadn't had the therapy when she did she would have become increasingly frustrated.
I do wish I had pushed for it when she was at playgroup, gone back to the HV... I thought going through the school nursery was the best approach - but didn't take into account, like you say, that they would need her to 'settle in' first - hence me needing to push...

Introduce sign. Research shoes sign is more likely to lead to vocalist ions and reduces frustration. She will pick it up very quickly.

My DD2 was a slow talker and HV wanted her referred for speech therapy. I refused as I guessed she was letting big sis do all her talking.

Fast forward nearly 4 years and we can't shut her up!