Commitment-phobic men are often the reason that women 'delay' starting a family

[Petal02]

A lovely friend of mine is in bits because her latest relationship has broken down. She is 41, would love to settle down and start a family, but has been unfortunate to have a string of boyfriends who didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to keep their options open, or didn't want children now but might have wanted them in the future. You get the picture.

She was 'told off' by her GP about 6 months ago (when she mentioned the subject of conception) for 'hanging around too much and not getting on with it.'

Yet you read so much about women who allegedly decide to wait til their 40s before starting a family; I suspect some of them would have started far earlier if only there weren't so many idiotic men about.

Sorry, just wanted to offload. Makes me very sad.

I think one difficulty about being upfront right from the start is that it would scare many people off. People who actually, deep down do want all the same things, they are just too embarrassed to admit it. It's madness, but it does make people come across as desperate. It's almost like you have to play this stupid game of not being that interested, we are supposed to fall in love first, be romantic, when these days we just don't have the time for that.

Maybe I'm wrong though and that's just how it was when I was young. I met my husband when I was 25 and got married two years later without being upfront about anything. We didn't even ask each other if we wanted children before we got married, when we did have children DH said he always just assumed we would, as did I.

"A really strong impression I get from younger men is that they know they are in for a very big financial commitment if they agree to have children with a woman. They know the law on divorce favours women. they know a woman with children gets custody and a meal ticket and the house."

Well, then these younger men are living in la la land aren't they?
Meal ticket? The main resident parent after a split is usually the mother, but often that is because the father ups and leaves; and this leaves the mother financially worse off, very much sans meal ticket.
My son's "father" pays fuck all for him. I knew having dc would be a very big financial commitment -for me, as a parent, and I was prepared to do it anyway. It hasn't been a big financial commitment for ds's dad.

And when men are left holding the baby, as happened to my uncle AND and my step dad in the 70's, then they stayed in the house, and also received no maintenance from the mother, and it was hard for them too.
Being left to raise a child alone is financially harder than leaving.

I agree with LRD 100% that if these young men are saying they don't want children for this reason, then they shouldn't be having children at all, ever. So they should probably have vasectomies, and they should be very upfront with their girlfriends that they don't want children, ever. I wonder if they are...

I have a three good friends, all late 30's, all childless not through choice, and all have gone about it different ways.
One dates multiple guys, and is very upfront about what she wants. This has been going on for some years.
Another has relationships that look like they are going somewhere, and then gets dumped.
The third is in your friends position OP. Here boyfriend of 5 years kept saying "one day" "maybe". She left him a year ago, they got back together. She was nearing 40, and given how hard it is to find anyone at that age, and given that she actually loves this man, and believes he loves her, she took a gamble and got back with him.
Now she has had to come to terms with the fact that she will remain childless. I hate the little fucker now, as I don't think he really does love her. He is a weak, needy individual who just didn't want to be alone, and he has ruined her life.
As a woman, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, and all those saying "just lay your cards on the table early on"-well, you can do that at 26. It comes across as sincere, and responsible. Romantic even. Try doing that at 38, on the fifth date.
Yes, you will look like a sperm crazed nut job.

I agree with IfNotNow - there's no way that when you are dating you can say ''oh by the way I want marriage and children asap'' without the man running a mile - not because he doesn't want commitment but because it would just scare him and make him think you only want to use him!

Totally agree that you can’t lay your cards on the table without being perceived as desperate. Which is why our parents had an easier time – dating led to marriage and children, it was simply the natural progression and no one questioned it. It was expected, everyone accepted it, and just got on with it.

This is why Internet Dating is so good - you can write it all down on your profile, write honestly about what you want/expect from a relationship and then the people who respond know how things stand without having to have the awkward face to face conversation

I also think that there is an element of "knowing what we know now" these days.
I had a serious boyfriend at 18. If that had been the 1960's, I probably would have married him, just like my parents were married at 20/21. (Divorced now..) but I grew up in the 90's, knowing I didn't have to settle down with someone I wasn't totally happy with, and also, that the world is a big place. I could travel, I could have sex with lots of different people, I had endless options.
I grew up knowing that, and so do men, the only difference being that men don't have this cut off point (or they think they don't) and it's true that, once in their mid thirties, they know full well that women the same age are starting to get anxious if they haven't had kids, and it becomes a way for the men to wield a bit of power.
Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I have male friends too, and brothers, and they are well aware how women can flip from being a free spirit, to panicking at exactly 36 and a half, whereas they just continue being"young" well into their 40's.
(For the record, the shoes I grew up in were happy-go-lucky yellow Converse, and are now transmogrifying into slightly platform soled, stompy, black high heeled court shoes a la Rosalind Russell.Thanks for that analogy Tilly!)

LRD ohyus. Have children young, people assume it was an accident. And that you have literacy problems. And once, someone thought I was their nanny/au pair!

During pregnancy, the midwife stopped in the middle of an explanation to check I knew what the word viable meant. Ackshurly, I chose Biology as an A-level. I can cope with that word. (MNers, don't wear Adidas track bottoms to an antenatal appointment, even if they're all that is fitting over the bump. Conclusions Are Drawn)

After they were born, we moved a couple of times when they were young enough to be seeing health visitors and such. So, when I took them to my new local children's centre, I would get cheerily informed that they offered literacy classes. It's a pity HCPs on the frontlines are probably guided to be more tentative about offering numeracy classes as a matter of policy (I very much doubt they guessed I could already add up). If they had, that would have broken through my automatic non-committal politeness!

LRD, maybe my change of mind to go from none to one have her the impression that if I changed my mind once I can do so again. I was however Chrystal clear when I agreed to one that this would be it and there would be no more. This was after two years of being together, seven years before we had our child. All along the way I have reiterated this right up until we got married. I am now having to say no virtually every month. It's wearing me down and making me feel shit. Is that the intention until I give in?

Ifnotnow and Latara spot on. I felt like a walking pariah as a single, childless 35yo (as far as meeting someone and starting a family was concerned). I felt so sad about the whole thing and hated the thought of anyone thinking of me as 'desperate'. That's why I decided to go down the donor route.

As mentioned upthread I met DP and decided to just lay my cards on the table and thought if he runs he runs. Added complication was that he is significantly younger than me. I couched it as: if you're unsure that you want children - or they're a long way off for you then there's no point in us starting something. I said he didn't have to decide then and there and could take a while to think about stuff and I was up for some fun dates and seeing where things went - but if we got on, I'd want some reassurances re commitment a few months down the line and I'd be hoping to ttc within the year

Difficult and risky. Fortunately it paid off because we fell in love. But I'm well aware he could have just fled and thought I was just trying to find a sperm donor! :(

It sounds really depressing, male. I can't really comment without knowing you, I just wanted to raise the question since reading your post, it was a bit confusing - but then, you obviously aren't going to put the effort into one MN post that you might put into discussing this with your partner and I do get that!

tilly - ooh, that's annoying.

As a woman, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, and all those saying "just lay your cards on the table early on"-well, you can do that at 26. It comes across as sincere, and responsible. Romantic even. Try doing that at 38, on the fifth date.

That is true. It was a lot easier for me. It needs to become normal to discuss everything. But I don't know how we get from here to there.

Writer - no, internet dating isn't necessarily so good. I had it on my profile that I didn't want kids. Obviously that narrowed my pool down to a puddle but I was regularly messaged by women who had "wanted kids" on their profile. One messaged me and said she couldn't believe how similar our interests were and liked my smile (!). I replied saying we had one very noticeable deal-breaker. Her response: "Oh but surely you'd change your mind for the right woman?"

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!

When it comes to "changing your mind if you met the right woman" - I think this applies to marriage, although not necessarily children.

Internet dating isn't great because I'm finding that I'm still attracting the same kind of men I attracted when I was younger - players! Not sure how I can change that but that's my problem I suppose.

"Oh but surely you'd change your mind for the right woman?"

What was your response???

There's a general stereotype that some women like to think they have the ability to change men - more so in relation to young girls always going after the 'bad boys' as they are convinced that for the right woman these 'bad boys' will change their ways and want to settle down. It's almost like a trophy/status symbol....like they can say, "Look what I did, he wasn't prepared to change for any other woman but he did for me....." etc etc

I have a friend who is a classic example of this - she is 32, absolutely DESPERATE for marriage and children but goes out with waner, after waner after wan*er in some mad belief that they'll have personality transplants after meeting her and then they'll have a Fairytale ending. It drives me mad that she professes to want a husband and a family more than anything but continues to make life choices that mean she'll never get it.

When a man tells a woman he doesn't want children they should respect that and not try and bully him into it.

There does seem to be small window where, as a woman, you are "allowed" to procreate. In London, that seems to be between 32 and 39!
Up North, where I am, most people are having their kids in their twenties, but I also get a bit annoyed at the people who say "Oh, they were about me having my dc at 20, but now I am 39 I'm free as a bird and can have my fun, whereas my friends are sad and childless".
I was in the middle, at the end of my 20's when I had dc, but I had a rollicking good time at 20/25 and wouldnt have missed it for the world. A lot of the things I did then would be considered rather unseemly for a 40 something woman to be doing..!
Also, you could easily have dc in mid thirties and still start a business/have lovely holidays by early 50's.
I am only saying this, because if I was unhappily childless at 37 and someone was crowing about how I should have just gone for it at 21 because look how well it worked out for them, I might feel a bit like punching them in the face.

I do have several younger colleagues who've married husbands and had a baby within a year of meeting through internet dating so it is possible; and I am attracting men aged 30 up to mid 40s so sooner or later I will meet someone decent I'm sure! I hope!
At this point I just want to meet a nice boyfriend and then see what happens. Not a player who just wants sex and occasional dates.

But there's a reason why girls/women have that impression, isn't there?

Just look at how much film/literature/culture sends out the message that women not only can, but are morally obligated to change 'bad' men? It's there from Bella Swan to Cathy and Heathcliffe.

This is another difference I notice between MN and RL. I left my ex because he was an abusive man-child; I still get quite a lot of comments from people who really feel I am morally in the wrong because I haven't yet made peace with him. Because, you see, he really needed to be helped and to learn.

It's in the interests of a patriarchal culture to promote and further the convention that women automatically want children and aren't capable of considering the reality and deciding against it.

yy about patronising HCP. I looked much younger than I was when I had ds (that soon changed!) and I remember the consultant saying "good girl" to me !
I told him icily that given that I was in labour I could safely be considered a woman!

Considering the importance and the value of bringing forth the next generation the truth is that mmen ought to be doing their utmost to persuade women to have children and to ensure that they are fully compensated for the sacrifices and work involved.

Instead they make out they are indulging us by giving in to us and agreeing to start a family.

I've seen this from all sides. I'm 24, but have been in te workplace since 16 and have always work with people 10-15 years older than me and a lot of men. So just anecdotally from what I've seen it's a mixture of women thinking 'oh he'll change one more year, two more years, have an extension go on this holiday, we are engaged but he save up two years for the ring then we will start saving for the wedding after that' even as a 16 year old this made me I learnt really early to accept guys for who they tell you they are straight away. Don't expect them to change as it just leads to heart break.

But the men, the way I have heard them speak about thier long term partners makes my skin crawl, wether it was banter or not I have no idea, but the underlying theme was 'she'll do for now but my options are open I just hve to say xyz to keep her sweet'

I think this put me on my gaurd as I'm blunt and to the point about what I want always have been. I told current DP on our first date I wanted to be married and have at least one more child before I was 30. And I wanted 3 more all together. Luckily he didn't run screaming but said yep I want that too. I have know him since we were 16/17 though, don't know if that makes a difference into how upfront you could be?

Another thing is that we both left school and home at 16 and have worked full time ever since, even after I had DS at 18. Our careers are a lot more advanced than other people out age we have both had strong work ethic and luck on our side I think. And our living arrangements a lot more secure as after having DS I worked hard for a nice, permanent family home type place.

I think that maybe, people who follow the college, gap year, uni, crazy rest of 20s, career established not before 35 as I need to so xyz, over think the whole thing too much, I regret no travelling before DS but then I'm quite laid back and I think no worries I can do that in my 40s etc. but I think the general view of other people is when you have kids life is over? So you can't do xyz, maybe this has something to do with it? kids make it harder but not impossible.

The only men I've heard of who worry about the finicial side of it like pp was saying, are guys between 19-23 which is very very strange but they seemed to have a pretty dim view of women anyway.

I work with women in their mid twenties, like you BitchPeas, and there does seem to be more of a move in this age group towards settling down.
I think generally there is a trend now, as younger women see older women struggling with dating well into their late 30's and beyond, to be wary of staying single.
I have though about this a lot recently, and come to the conclusion that those of use born into the 1970's were kind of like an experimental generation. Our parents were getting divorced, having second families, living in communes (or some of our parents were!) and, for my friends and I anyway, growing up in the 90's we were very negative about conventional family set ups.
We had been through a lot of upheaval, as children, and had no rosy view of marriage/babies. I think there was a lot of angst over who you make a commitment to, and when.
We were a bit obsessed with freedom, and not being tied down.
Also, as young women we really believed in making our own way in the world, and the idea of being a sahm was not remotely appealing, or expected. Many women I know also would not even consider having children with a man who didn't equally share responsibility for the home and children. For some of them, this has worked out in their favour, for some it hasn't.
What I see with the younger women at work, is that they very keen are they to get the ring on their finger, buy a house,start a family- which is fine, except they also complain that their partner does no housework and they don't earn enough (one colleague is getting really cross that her dp is still in a low paid job). These young women do their partners ironing-something that would never have occurred to me with any of the men I have lived with!
So, it's swings and roundabouts. I think some of my friends do have regrets that they didn't just marry at 22, and some don't, but I would hate for the world to swing back so much to a pre-1960's conservative set-up out of sheer fear of being alone in the world.
Equality is still a looong way off.