Commitment-phobic men are often the reason that women 'delay' starting a family

[Petal02]

A lovely friend of mine is in bits because her latest relationship has broken down. She is 41, would love to settle down and start a family, but has been unfortunate to have a string of boyfriends who didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to keep their options open, or didn't want children now but might have wanted them in the future. You get the picture.

She was 'told off' by her GP about 6 months ago (when she mentioned the subject of conception) for 'hanging around too much and not getting on with it.'

Yet you read so much about women who allegedly decide to wait til their 40s before starting a family; I suspect some of them would have started far earlier if only there weren't so many idiotic men about.

Sorry, just wanted to offload. Makes me very sad.

I think some women think they can work on their bloke to agree to things even when said bloke has said from the outset what he is about.

I have a situation like this at the moment. My wife and I got together and within 3 weeks I said I wasn't going to have more than one more child (I already had one). I didn't really want any and made this clear at the outset. I gave her the choice to walk away and find someone else if she wanted a big family. She chose not to. I am now getting bombarded with shall we have another one. For me nothing has changed. I don't want anymore. It's starting to annoy me now to be honest because she knew my views yet obviously thought she could change my mind. I couldn't have been clearer. I feel bad for being the bad guy yet I just don't want any more. I am late 40's now and the thought of still being responsible for kids in my 60's is frightening.

Agree to an extent with this. I have several friends for whom this is the case. But equally some of them have wussed out of discussing what they really want with bfs until it's been too late

I'm just mouthy. I've never managed to not have that conversation with men- for better or worse.

Yeeee-eeesss ... I feel bad saying this, maleview, because I imagine it feels tough commenting on a thread on MN when it's on this subject ... but you surely weren't that clear if you really didn't want any but ended up with one? Is it not possible she sensed your reluctance last time, and thought you got over it?

This is a really trite comparison, but if you watch Grey's Anatomy, there's a bit that stayed with me there, where a woman who doesn't want children is arguing with her husband who very much does. And he says it's ok, if she has it, she'll love it. And she points out that that's precisely the problem: of course she would love it, but that wouldn't negate the fact she didn't actually want that in her life.

I wonder if maybe your wife sees you loving your child, and misinterprets this as evidence you 'changed your mind'?

I agree with okto, btw. I think realistically, deciding to have a baby on your own is a huge decision and by the time it's become socially acceptable ('oh, poor Jane, 43 and hasn't met Mr Right, it's understandable ...') you're likely past the point at which it would be easy.

Sadly, I don't think you're alone in that maleview. DH has a friend who is in the same situation, always said that he only wanted one child and his wife claimed to agree until recently.

It's so sad that it's looking like this could destroy their marriage, especially when DHs friend is likely to be the one who ends up having to live away from his dd even though he has done nothing wrong and it's his wife that's changing the goalposts.

You have my sympathy.

The problem is three-fold.

1. Both men and women are (generally speaking) socialised into thinking having kids is something you do in your thirties after going to uni, getting your career off the ground, buying a house (or whatever), etc. Obviously some people want kids before this point, but if I look around the place I work, the people who had kids in their twenties all had contraception failures (even if happy about it now!), while those in their thirties were very much planned.

2. Women are taught to worry about fertility after 35 in particular - but men don't get this message. Children is something they can do 'later' once everything is perfect. They don't realise that if they wait until then it might be too late for the woman they're with. Of course they can just find another partner.

3. It's seen as pushy to say you want children upfront, or to want them before all other life goals have been achieve. So women in particular wait longer and longer for 'the right time'. And it never comes. All this talk about 'men are clear about what they want but women don't listen' - yes it happens but I think men being vague and saying 'later' is more common.

I know too many women who have wanted children but have been messed about in their twenties and early thirties.

Of course I know my 'data' is anecdotal. I also have another friend whose husband has been asking her for children since they were 35. She is scared of medical stuff but I don't think she's told him this. So instead she finds excuse after excuse. She's now 38 and still trying to put him off until next year. But at the same time, she also tells me she's scared of infertility and she does really want a child! Her thinking isn't joined up at all. She could conceive first time but I am worrying - as someone who has been through all the traumas of infertility myself and I started ttc at 26 - that she may find she's left it too late.

LRD your post made perfect sense to me and I'm slightly appalled to find out how effectively the full complexity of women's lives in modern society can be expressed in terms of shoes.

I have a horrible feeling the next step is gaining a New York appartment, a terrible wardrobe, and a habit of prefixing our rambles about shoes and women's lives with 'I couldn't help but wonder ...'

doublewhammied.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/carrie_bradshaw_at_computer.jpg

Btw, hope, I know loads of people who had planned kids in their 20s. Varies, I guess?

She understood existence on a far deeper level than we ever thought! How the hell did she manage that?

This is one of the best, most insightful and intelligent threads I've read on Mumsnet. The point made earlier about women who clearly state their desires being "brave" is really interesting- and so true, which is ludicrous in 2014.

I hope that my girls (21 and17) have learned not to wait to be asked, but will state their needs in an honest fashion without being judged as strident. Or at least, not caring if anyone thinks they are strident.

Nominate for Classics?

Most of my peers/town have children in their 20s hope and nearly all planned. It also doesnt mean they dont have careers. At dhs work nearly every 20 something man has children.

If you had got to 30 and not had or told everyone when your having children then people will think its a bit out there. Often I see god I know he or she is 30 when are they going to? reactions.

Women are taught to worry about fertility after 35 in particular - but men don't get this message. Children is something they can do 'later' once everything is perfect. They don't realise that if they wait until then it might be too late for the woman they're with. Of course they can just find another partner

But you have to add to that the structural inequalities between men & women: men routinely ("Natural"? I think not) seek female partners 5-10 years younger than them.

And because of several thousand years of inequality (let's just call it patriarchy) women are socialised to "partner up."

So if women in their late 20s/30s don't "bag" the right man, they can be very unfortunate. And they have to find a man generally a bit older than them, but what if they prefer (sensibly, IMO) a man roughly their own age?

If a woman is unlucky (and finding the right partner does not make you special -- it's luck as much as anything) and finds that there's not a great pool of available and suitable partners, then she's encouraged to think it's her fault. She's selfish, she's "too" career-oriented etc etc etc.

And young men believe the kind of sexist nonsense spouted upthread at how women hang men out to dry on divorce (so why are divorced men with children routinely richer than divorced women with children by a huge amount?)

I've seen this pattern with one dear friend, and several other women I work with. They think it's because they are somehow lacking or bad people, unattractive or unloveable. It's so sad, because actually it's structural. But smug married parents all around them make it hard to see that.

Upthechimney, spot on. As I've said upthread, one internalises. Or I did. And once you have been convinced that the reason you don't have children is that there is something wrong with you in the first place, it gets harder and harder to have That Conversation.

This is such a sad thread, really. I get sick of the woman-blaming ...

Upthechimney I agree, it boils my blood.

I know first-hand that you can do everything 'right', still have your best fertile years wasted and then people look to you, the woman, to blame.

I get sick of the man blaming that goes on on this website, and I'm just thankful that my real life doesn't reflect many MN attitudes.

I think this is such a complex topic - I imagine for a lot of women they aren't purposefully 'delaying' TTC they are just in situations where TTC isn't an option.

My parents are divorced and many years ago my dad had a girlfriend who was younger than him (he was mid 40's and she was about 35) and they were mad about each other. She was childless and said it had just never happened for her, but she desperately wanted children. My dad obviously had me and my sister (both mid-late 20's at the time) and he was also a Grandad as my sister has 2 children. My dad had also had a vasectomy which his GF knew. My dad was crazy about this woman and she put a lot of pressure on him to have his vasectomy reversed and guilt tripped him a lot, saying she loved him but if he didn't give her a child she would leave him. I completely accept this is her right but at the same time, my dad had always told her from the start that he'd got grown up children and grandchildren and didn't want to go down that route again. She had obviously chosen to stay with him despite this, in the hope she'd get him to change his mind. this on-going drama/saga/ultimatum went on for years and I never understood why she continued to think she could change his mind, especially as he was only getting older, as was she. At one point towards the very end of their relationship my dad told me that he was so scared of losing her that he has looked into getting his vasectomy reversed (20 years after having had it done) and said he didn't want a child (he was about 47) but he'd do it rather than lose her. Thankfully he saw the madness of his 'plan' and ultimately they did break up over the issue - but like I said, it went on for just over 2 years. She's now well into her 40's, still single and still childless.

I'm not blaming her for anything, but my dad had always been upfront but she chose not to leave and instead believed she could change his mind. But, at the same time, they really loved each other and part of me thinks she didn't want to lose my dad because of a hypothetical baby that they didn't have. It was sad all round really.

LRD/George'sdino - I don't mean there aren't people who plan to have children in their twenties, sorry. But I think overall it is less common. Certainly I planned to have them then - but unfortunately it didn't happen for me. My fertility had already gone down the pan. I think it would be a good thing if more people these days did feel it was normal to plan a family then. Lots do - but increasing numbers think it's something you do 'later'. Does that make more sense?

That's a sad story writer :( I feel for your dad, but more so for his ex, despite the fact your dad was upfront at the start.

Yes, it makes sense - I was just thinking aloud, really. I know that at least one of my mates got really hacked off with her GP constantly assuming her first was unplanned and that she was too young (she was about 23 IIRC; she got a snotty question about why she wasn't attending giving-up-smoking meetings that had been specially recommended to her and had to point out, patiently, that she's never smoked in her life ).

But this is why I don't think a lot of this is about 'blaming' specific men or women - her DP is the same age as her and everyone assumes he is both superdad, and probably didn't really want the baby. Whereas in her, having a baby she didn't totally want/plan (she did!) would be seen as further reason to get judgy. And I've had someone comment that my brother, who is an utterly devoted dad and had his first at 28, was 'nice to let' his wife have babies.

I just think there is so much bollocks talked over this issue.

thanks patience - my dad was devastated. He eventually moved away because as Sod's Law would have it they worked together and he couldn't cope with seeing her every day. But like you said, I felt very sorry for her too, she was a really nice woman. Sometimes people just find them in really crap circumstances - it's never as black and white as to say "Just leave him if you aren't on the same page" - it's not that easy when you love someone.

Writer thank you for sharing that. Very sad.

I have always known I don't want children. I have told every potential partner this very, very early on. I am totally upfront as it is not something I am going to change my mind on. Two partners have left me over this, despite their knowing this categorically. They assumed they could change my mind. In BOTH cases I had my partner and assorted friends and family members trotting out "if you really loved her, you'd give her a baby". No one ever said to THEM "if you really loved him, you'd not have a baby".

So let's not do the whole 'woman blaming' vs 'men blaming' stuff earlier up. We're ALL capable of putting someone else in the frame for all sorts of reasons, fair or otherwise.

I actually phoned a Womens' Hour phone in once, a few years ago, to make this very point, as I always feel like shouting whenever I see womens' career ambitions being blamed for their lack of children, even though it is not something that happened to me.

My brother internet dated in his mid to late thirties as he wanted to settle down and have a family, in London he felt that he was rejected by perfectly nice women who had liked his profile when they realised that his earning potential was not massive. I suspect they were looking to have the baby conversation with someone but had a checklist of wants/ needs that he couldn't fulfil all of.

He eventually moved back to Scotland and met a lovely woman who earns more than him and where lower house prices make financial life easier. They had a baby at forty and have just got married.

I suppose I am adding house prices to the list of reasons men and women delay parenthood.

I certainly remember a male flat mate saying he would not start a family until he earned £80,000, this was 20 years ago and DH and I have not managed it yet ( but have three children).

I think that it's a prevalent belief within our society that any woman who doesn't want children will "change her mind". That no woman (or only a tiny minority of us) is capable of considering the reality of children and thinking, "hey, actually, no I don't want to be a parent".

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many women end up falsely confident that their childfree male partners/partners with previous children will change their minds about having (further) children. How can a woman truly accept and respect someone else's family plans, when she's been taught that 50% of the human population are mere creatures of instinct?! Our hypothetical woman's problems don't stop there. It is probable that she may have been socialised to believe that "oh, alright. If you really want some" is as close as it gets to enthusiasm about planned ttc for men, and so thinks she just needs to wait for him to cool down from "militantly against" to "indifferent".

From the outside, it's predictable. To her, it wasn't. She wasn't stupid or ignorant of female fertility. Just in possession of misleading social mythology.