Commitment-phobic men are often the reason that women 'delay' starting a family

[Petal02]

A lovely friend of mine is in bits because her latest relationship has broken down. She is 41, would love to settle down and start a family, but has been unfortunate to have a string of boyfriends who didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to keep their options open, or didn't want children now but might have wanted them in the future. You get the picture.

She was 'told off' by her GP about 6 months ago (when she mentioned the subject of conception) for 'hanging around too much and not getting on with it.'

Yet you read so much about women who allegedly decide to wait til their 40s before starting a family; I suspect some of them would have started far earlier if only there weren't so many idiotic men about.

Sorry, just wanted to offload. Makes me very sad.

The "All the Single Ladies " article you linked to is really great crescentmoon. I especially liked her take on porn.

brokenhearted55a yes that is true; even on paying sites like Match.

I was shocked to find that men are still players even when they have to pay for a subscription.

brokenhearted - I met my DH via online dating so I probably have a rose tinted view then

I always cringe inside when I hear of women 'forgetting' to take their contraceptive pill - forcing a child upon a man who has explicitly said he doesn't want one is so wrong. I have got a friend and I have a feeling (based on a comment she has made) that she has secretly stopped taking her Pill in the hope of falling pregnant.

Brokenhearted..that is the nightmare of old mothers who have sons.A little grandchild in the ether, never to be seen.

Men have seen their friends 'bitten' in courts.

Morebeta says exactly how they think.They want no 'baggage' to deal with...the step father problems.

We just warn to double up on the condoms and trust nobody on pills not to have an 'accident'.

Can we stop the trend here towards presenting women as "trapping" men into fatherhood? If men really really don't want to be fathers, they need to take responsibility for their own fertility.

I agree with others that "laying your cards on the table" or "being upfront" is a terrible idea. If you have only known someone a matter of weeks (days?) and they say that, then if I were a man I'd think they were less interested in me than my sperm. The conversation just doesn't work. It doesn't matter that it's the reality, it just smacks of being desperate. And I'm not just blaming men, either. A guy had this exact conversation with me on date 2. He was ready to settle down etc etc. There was no date 3!

I agree with MoreBeta about the return to greater age gaps. Dh's friend is on the look-out for a wife. He is 49. He says 38 is his cut-off point. Biology isn't fair, but many things in life aren't and there's no point in railing against it.

@ Latara

"brokenhearted55a yes that is true; even on paying sites like Match.
I was shocked to find that men are still players even when they have to pay for a subscription."

If its any consolation I found during my time of internet dating that there seemed to be just as many women 'players' out there as were men. Lots of women loved the dating and being treated bit (restaurants, bars, picnics, theatre etc) but not the committing to a single person part. Their profiles described all the usual stuff about wanting to meet the right bloke and settle down but it soon became apparent that they were just as happy to play the field as the blokes.

Thankfully you soon work out how to spot these timewasters and can avoid them and soon went on to meet my future wife.

When I hear about these poor men whose female partners 'forgot' pills, I wonder whether the man insisted on them taking a trip down the STI clinic to make sure they were both clear. I bet not...

I would have to know a man very well, and completely trust him with everything, from my credit card PIN before I felt comfortable completely leaving contraception up to him. I mean, people forget medication all the time. It's a pretty easy error to make. As far as I can tell, many men are rather more lackadaisical.

P.S. you do not double up on condoms. The friction between each one is morely likely to produce holes in both than just one. Don't tell your son to double up on condoms, gotthemoon!

Tell him to find an electronically tested brand that fits him and to only use water-based lubricant. And he shouldn't keep his condoms in a wallet or jeans pocket.

Ifnownotwhen - Im very surprised you know lots of young women who iron, cook etc. Its more what you see on here with older mums in rl I know very few 20 somethings running around after men and if they do everyone takes the piss out of them constantly

Thanks for good advice Tilly.It has winged its way quickly and is being roared at over in the City by the 40 something 'boys'

Wish I could make the 'grin' face.

Slightly off the point, but thinking about the above: I wonder that more celebrities/footballers don't get caught out by baby/fortune hunters. There was Jude Law, who tried to get away with it by giving a woman a false mobile number, and Boris Becker and the broom cupboard. Do celebrities wear extra-thick condoms?!

gotthemoon
Good! Specify that vaseline is oil based. Melts rubber.

lainiekazan well, there's Durex 'extra safe', which are slightly thicker. Perhaps they simply take care to use contraception properly?

If a woman is okay with being a single parent (and doesn't care about her sexual health, or ascertaining the medical history of her partner, and grown up things like that) and has no fertility issues, she could achieve pregnancy quite easily by dolling herself up and going clubbing. She wouldn't even have to be deceitful.

Down here, at the pleb level, many men will only use a condom if the woman asks. If she doesn't, such a man will assume she is on the pill, without even asking.

Tilly...you are educating me! who knew!Am slinking off now though,before I get accused of over involvement in the 'boys' lives.
Will still pray for their 'protection',though.

@UptheChimney

"Can we stop the trend here towards presenting women as "trapping" men into fatherhood? If men really really don't want to be fathers, they need to take responsibility for their own fertility."

I agree with you 100%, men should take equal responsibility when it comes to contraception and if they can't be bothered with that then they need to accept the consequences. However, whether you like it or not, there is a minority of women who have no qualms about 'accidentally' forgetting to take the pill in order to get the pregnancy they desire despite knowing full well that their DH/DP does not want to become a father at that moment in time. I have personally sat with my wife and her friends in utter astonishment when this has been suggested as an acceptable solution to a women who was complaining that her partner is not quite on the same page as her when it came to starting a family. Of course when I flagged it up as total betrayal of trust it was laughed off as 'a joke'. My wife later confessed that she has heard this suggested several times over the years by various women of her acquaintance. I have male friends who became unexpected dads after similar 'accidents' after they have sat down with their partners and agreed on the pill as a contraception, we are not talking casual relationships here but couples who have been together for a few years. Sure, the men could have worn condoms but when the person you love and trust implicitly tells you they are on the pill, and you see said pill pack in the bathroom supposedly being used day after day it is easier said then done to start using condoms thus implying that their partners are dishonest and not to be trusted. How would you feel if it was your DH/DP who suddenly decided to use condoms due to his lack of trust in you?

Yanbu. I have seen this happen to two friends. The men eventually married them then were surprised at miscarriage after miscarriage. Both now have one child and look unlikely to manage more. The husbands are gutted. Stupid twats.

I agree that ideally women should be able to take control and say "I want a baby in 6 months" but is it really that easy?

When your relationship is otherwise good, and you love them, could you really just walk away? Especially when they aren't telling you that they don't want children, but that they do, just not yet. And when the things that they want first are so reasonable that you look a little unhinged for insisting that you want a baby sooner.

And at what point do you say that? If you set a deadline within a few months of meeting someone you look desperate. And who wants a child in a relationship that isn't secure? Who doesn't want to enjoy time as a couple before becoming a family?

And when it gets further into the relationship, you've got a good relationship, someone who makes you happy. So when they say "let me just get these exams out of the way and get my promotion", are you really going to leave because you want a baby sooner. And then they get their promotion, and now you can afford that trip you've always wanted to make, so lets do that first then we'll think about a baby when we get back.

It's a big decision to end it with someone over this, especially because the promise is there that the babies will happen. If you just wait 6 months, a year you might manage to have both the relationship and the babies. I don't think these men are lying btw, they do want children, but as a distant ideal. Far easier when you're with someone who says "I don't want children"

I do have a friend who 'forgot' (just stopped) to take her pill and became pregnant, I don't think they had even talked about children, her BF certainly didn't know or agree to it. They weren't married but had fairly recently moved in together. She had the baby and they both say it was the best think they ever did, even though he wasn't best pleased at the time.

They have now been married for over 10 years and have another child. I don't think this is an uncommon story either, I think very often it does work out. Not that it's the right way to go about things but women have long been 'trapping' men in this way, it's just in the past he/they would often be 'forced' into marriage before the baby arrived.

Commitment-phobes are a pain, and deserve criticism if not being straight with the other person in the equation. They come in two genders though, believe it or not. OK, the biological issues are different of course, but it's not just about that. Many blokes I know want to have a family while they are in the physical condition and young enough to be able to put everything they can into the raising of and support for children. This means that some of the same concerns apply. I feel sorry for your friend, being messed about by people when serious concerns like having a family are at the fore is never going to be good. I'm going to sit on the fence on this one. There are some jerks out there, but please don't judge everyone by their standard.

I'm 23 this year and pregnant with my first, I'm from the north west and a vast majority of my school friends are already parents. One friend who is 25 this year is trying for her first. Having children in my 20s has always been what I intended to do, its just not the done thing in my area, family or social group to wait longer than that. This goes for the women with careers aswell, most people I know have attained their career by this point anyway. I did loads of partying from 16-21, I was well and truly sick of it by then. Many women I know became parents in their teens.

I always find it odd so many women online etc say its so hard to find a man younger than 40 that wants kids...really? I'm sure the socio-economic status/type of man they are looking to attract/dating (likely one who is financially sorted and career/lifestyle minded, not family orientated) is the problem. I find working class men are far keener to settle down than middle/upper class men. You can't have everything, sometimes its best to forget about having a high earning career man as your partner as these are the type who generally want to live the single life for much longer and think about someone with a little less money and social standing. To me the most important thing in a partner is them being committed, family orientated and down to earth, not that they have a fantastic job and lots of economic opportunities...these men in general do not want to settle down early and who can blame them?

From my personal point of view, I see no point in waiting around if you know categorically it would be hell on earth for you to never have a family. If never having children is a risk your willing to take to put settling down off, then thats fine. I saw it as a huge risk and never having atleast 2 children would be very upsetting for me, like it or not in your 20s you are at your most attractive thus have the best chance of attracting a partner of your standards. I would start looking for husband/father material by my late 20s atleast. Obviously many ladies are beautiful 35+ but in general its not the ideal age range for men seeking women to have children with, they are not at their most fertile or attractive. This is something I've merely heard said by many men by the way, its not a personal dig from me!

Its well known many women have trouble getting a serious relationship at this age where he wants kids and its not uncommon for men to leave older women for a woman 10 years younger when he finally does want children.

At the end of the day its all about balance to me, I also know a woman (MIL!) who is pushing 60 now and never did anything with her life except have children from being 16, no career, no nothing, just had lots of children and drank alcohol her whole life. She is now extremely lost, having a mental breakdown and cannot cope with the fact her adult children have all grown up now and do not want or need her control and interference anymore. She has never had anything else to focus on in her life and I definately do not want to be in her shoes, she is a lonely, miserable battleaxe with terrible empty nest syndrome. I want (if I am lucky!) 3/4 children and then to work on my career, my DM had all hers in her 20s and now at 45 has the career she always wanted, own house, car and can go and do as she pleases. That is what I want, plus I'd feel very left out of my social circle if I waited till 35 to have children, no other women I know wait so long and I'd probably have little in common with older mothers as most seem to be from a different social class to me.

I find working class men are far keener to settle down the middle/upper class men. You can’t have everything. Sometimes it’s best to forget about having a high earning career man as your partner as these are the type who generally want to live the single life for much longer, and think about men with a little less money and social standing. To me the most important thing in a partner is them being committed, family orientated and down to earth – not that they have a fantastic job – these men in general to not want to settle down early

I can argue with any of this. Excellent post 22honey. There was a fabulous article in the Sunday Times a few years ago, which said pretty much what 22honey has said. I’ll dig around and see if I can find a link.

I met DH when I was 18 - and we had the what do you want in the future type conversations we both wanted DC at some point. We had many similar conversations over the years.

We finally had our first when I was 27/28 and DH was 30. I think he'd have started a few years sooner though not much.

I however had this script in my head - finish education, be settled in career, get car, buy house ie be settled.

I wasn't being selfish career woman but trying to be responsible and secure enough to have DC.

In the end a GP terrified me - told me menstrual issues I had - could well be a sign of fertility issues making at some point seem a big risk so we agreed to start with only education finished and carers few years in- then found out we were actually very fertile.

When I became a mother I met other women similar age to me who admitted playing fast and lose with contraception - it worked out for them and their men were actually pleased. Many of their men had similar scripts to me.

We couldn't buy a house till early 30's and DH career didn't settled with a permanent contact till late 30 - not unusual. He's in higher education and is surprised how many of his undergraduates have DC - in early 20's. I think early or late is actually better option than usual late 20s/early 30s we did.

I wonder how many of these commitment phobia's are waiting for the perfect time and waiting to long though I'd expect there are more cynical and manipulative people in there.

Do you think it's to do with whether having children brings you status? In the past maybe, and also in working class areas today, men enjoy being seen as fathers. It seems big and grown up and important.

But for career minded men, enjoying the single life, travelling, working hard, etc - being a father is more of a handicap than something to look up to. They don't spend much time with extended family or with anyone with kids. Their social life involves other single people, and men who are dads just kind of drop out of things or can't take the pace.

I know some of this is true for women too, but I do think the status of being a mother weights against some of it.

Sorry ,but that makes me lol a little bit Honey22. There seems to be this perception that all these older women are after a man with an amazing job/money etc, whereas I don't know anyone who is trying to date men like that. Most of my single friends would settle for a man who has a job. Any job. What is true is that the men who are left post 30/35 are not the marrying kind, so that is part of the problem.
I tend to date working class men, no idea why other than I don't seem to be attractive to middle class men, and if they are over 30 they seem to have the same inability to just choose one woman and settle down. They are too busy internet dating and playing the field.

Also, can we PLEASE stop with this whole "you are more attractive in your 20's so that's when you should bag a man" stuff.
Women are not JUST the way they look. I may have been thinner and prettier in my 20's, but I was a nut job. I was very uptight and stressy. I worried about having fat thighs. If I were a man with any sense I would be more interested in me now than me then!

Anyway Honey22, congrats on your pregnancy. When the baby comes you may find that you end up being friends with women of all ages. I have "mum" friends from early 20's to late 40's.