that parents should fucking ask me first before going out and leaving their son outside playing with mine ..

[ggirl]

kids are 10/11
playing happily which if fine
but I want to go out
ds's friends parents have buggered off somewhere so we have to wait for them to come home ......wankers

and i don't want to take their child with me

[NeverQuiteSure]

Interesting and rather heated debate.

Personally, I favour calculated, low level risk over 'benign neglect', although I do see the benefits to the (surviving) child of the latter.

This report makes good reading, particularly the summary on the fifth page, which acknowledges the pros and cons of a 'safer' childhood. It also points out that for "a child born into the developed world today, the chances of death by injury before the age of 15 are approximately 1 in 750 – less than half the level of 30 years ago." Not taking into account life changing injuries which I imagine would stand at least two or three times higher.

Freedom is certainly a precious gift to a child, but with it comes risk. You have to look at your child and your environment and set that risk accordingly.

[NeverQuiteSure]

Oops, forgot the link

[Northernlurker]

'Noone asked her to make it her responsibility.'

Nobody needed to. As a responsible adult you look out for the welfare of those who are vulnerable. Nobody asked me to take the woman I met in a shop recently around that shop helping her to do her shopping because she was in a wheelchair (not the self propelling kind) that she could only move with her feet and she couldn't reach anything. Nobody asked me to do that but I still did it because it needed to be done. As parents we come in to contact with other people's kids all the time and nobody has to ask us to watch that they are ok. You just do it. Usually it's just for fleeting moments but in this case the OP has no way to contact the parents, doesn't know where they are or when they'll be back. Sure Granny might live round the corner but I don't thin so somehow.

[adoptmama]

northernlurker the situations you describe are different. You saw a lady in need of help and offered it. The OP saw a child playing outside of his own home, who was doing so with the knowledge of his parents who presumably made an informed decision he was old enough and sensible enough to do so whilst they went out. My assuming granny was living round the corner is as reasonable as assuming his parents are grossly neglectful and simply expected a neighbour they do not know to watch their son and had made no other arrangements for him.

We have reached the point in our society where people are calling the police because they see children playing unsupervised, not because the children are in danger but because people fear they may be at some point further down the line. This is a disproportionate fear. And it is toxic and harmful to perpetuate the belief that children are unsafe, vulnerable, neglected or at risk if they do not have constant access to adults.

[Northernlurker]

The issue is not that the child is alone. A 10 or 11 yr old should be able to manage perfectly fine in their own home with access to warmth, entertainment, food and drink and able to contact parents etc. The issue is this child is locked out. Has, it appears nowhere to go and nothing to do except be dependant on the OP and the OP's son and you really have to ask WHY that is - and that's the problem. Because it seems the parents have gone out not thinking he needs access to any of those things, doesn't need a key, doesn't need a neighbour to go to - they may assume the OP will fill any needs (whch is rude of them) or they may simply not be bothered (which is neglectful).
It's not that I think children have to have access to adults, it's that I think adults should not give the impression they have abandoned the children, albeit temporarily.

[NeverQuiteSure]

Thank you for the link kim147. I cut and paste the quote from a Unicef report (link above, somewhere!) Your report makes very interesting reading, although I think your maths might be flawed.

Your method calculates the chance of a 1-15 year old dying in any particular year. To calculate the total risk over their childhood, we must add up their risk for each year. Using just the 2012 data, this would look like:

Year 1 (birth - 1): death rate of 2,912 (our of a population of 10,780,395 - calculated using the 2012 birth rate minus the 2012 death rate and the 2012 still birth rate)
Years 1-4: death rate of 454
Years 5-9: death rate of 267
Years 10-14: death rate of 272

Since the population remains broadly static, we can assume a combined risk of 7423 out of 10,780,395. Which works out as a total death rate of 1 in 1,452. Currently, the percentage of deaths from accidents in developed nations (sorry, don't know the UK %) is 40%. So that would be 2,969 out of 10,780,395, i.e. 1 in every 3,653 children born in 2012 will die as a result of an accident before their 15th birthday Ok, so death rates will change over the next few years, but it's a good approximation.

This seems very reasonable given that:

• The unicef report (which gave an average of 1 in 750) is looking back over the past 15 years. A time during which it recognises, huge improvements in child safety have been made
  
• The unicef report also places the UK very high on it's safety list. Children towards the bottom of their list have double the chance of dying from an accident
  

I am not in any way advocating no risk or not letting 10 year olds play out (I have a 10 year old DSS, he gets a fair amount of freedom). I just like numbers

[NeverQuiteSure]

Yes it is low. I never said don't let them out!

That statistic is with today's parenting (well, with 2012's parenting ) With 1950's parenting it would be far, far, FAR higher (most likely much higher than 1 in 750)

[invicta]

10 year olds are perfectly fine being left alone. However, I would never leave a child in the care of someone else, without checking with them first.

[NeverQuiteSure]

In the 50s, they had bomb sites to play around in. But less cars So true.

I've just spotted an error in my maths actually, so I might have to just trust UNICEF on this one. Bear in mind their stats will include lots of baby and toddler household injuries too. I never meant to pursuade anyone against giving their child certain freedoms. Just to counter the 'it never did us any harm' chestnut.

[WorrySighWorrySigh]

It is all very well people saying the child would be fine for a few hours but how many hours is a few? 2? 3? 4?

How many hours is it acceptable to leave a child without access to shelter/toilet/drinks?

Of course he will be perfectly fine. Until the very second that he isnt. Until something goes wrong.

We had a neighbour who used to go out leaving his children playing with ours. He never rang the doorbell to check it was all right. Actually I got the sense that he didnt actually care whether we were in or not. It just justified it in his head. His kids were playing with someone else so he didnt need to care.

[NigellasDealer]

yes it used to happen to me with a couple of tiny kids in the backyard of some flats, their mum would just leave me watching them and playing with mine for ages while she did drugs in her kitchen.

[MsMischief]

what if something had happened to him & he needed emergency care?

I have had, on occasion, random kids needing help for some reason as I live near a park and I'm usually in. I don't feel obliged to stay in just in case a random child needs help and if I do help someone I do it it a 'citizen' way rather than a 'childminder way'. I helped my adult neighbour when he fell of his ladder and I helped the elderly woman across the road who had dementia. It's ridiculous to not help out children in an emergency because their parents should be there. I'm sure if the OP had gone out and the boy had an accident or something then someone would helped him, the same way that an adult can expect the assistance of other humans.

I was out for hours as a kid and I honestly can't remember having a piss being an issue. I can't remember what we did but it can't have been an issue. I do only pee every few hours though, not every few minutes.

[mercibucket]

something could happen anywhere
on the way to school
in town
on the way to a friends

we all rely on the kindness of strangers and on publicly funded emergency services as our kids spread their wings

[AgentProvocateur]

PMSL@ "what if it rains?" Are kids soluble these days?!

[BurntPancake]

This has got fuck all to do with whether he's old enough to play out/be left home alone or whatever. This boy was locked out of his house while his parents went out. If they'd left him a key then it might have been ok but it looks like they just left while he was playing and locked him out.
Everyone saying this is fine, would you like to be locked out of your own home? I wouldn't. It's disgraceful behaviour and in my opinion neglectful.