AIBU to ask if you would support a strike by midwifery/nursing staff?

[HolidayArmadillo]

Just that really, would you support a strike by frontline NHS midwifery/nursing staff? Following the 1% 'pay rise' news (which is actually a pay cut in real terms and only for those who are experienced staff at the top of their band) more and more of my colleagues have been saying that if it came to it they would strike, many have been reluctant up until this point as no one wants to disrupt women/patient care but the workforce is becoming burnt out, disillusioned and unsafe.

Just wondering what the mumsnet collective has to say?

thumbwitch yeah it does seem to worry a lot of people but it needs to be degree based in my opinion. There's so much knowledge we'd miss out on. Which is why there's a lot of anger at what the government is proposing, that HCA will be offered the opportunity to 'train on the job' and phasing the degree out. Cheaper for them.

Yes, but you don't exactly need the same grades as you do to read law at Oxford or Medicine at Imperial. You do, however, have a career structure ahead of you and the opportunity to work condensed hours if that suits you. Many many people in clerical roles who might also have degrees nowadays do not have the opportunity to climb a structure ladder as quickly. Many many people work in hard and arduous conditions and do essential roles and face the public.

Surely if nurses have degrees then a minimum expectation would be to become a junior sister.

Midwifery in particular is highly competitive and you need to be the best of the best to get into that course. I know women who have tried 3-4 times

Yes, but you don't exactly need the same grades as you do to read law at Oxford or Medicine at Imperial

So?

Well if midwives have more than two brain cells perhaps you would care to explain why mine couldn't record information correctly and in my case (auto-immune diseas) order the correct blood tests until it was too late, I had to insist on seeing a doctor and when I got the test I needed and had asked for three times and asked the midwife to repeat back to me what she was ordering, the readings had dropped and it was too late in the pregnancy to take the required drugs and I was more ill than I otherwise would have been for six weeks after the birth. I have had similar again and again.

So you aren't going to earn what someone who needs 4 A* and who might become a doctor, academic or a lawyer, is likely to and it is a reasonable assumption to understand that.

I'm a nurse and have AAAB at A level, is that good enough for you?

Since when are nurses and NHS staff arguing for pay parity with doctors, academics or lawyers? (and HA! at your assumption that academics are well paid, by the way...)

I don't want to earn big bucks, I never expected to going into nursing. What I want is the staffing levels to be at a safe and adequate level which would allow for me and my colleagues to do our jobs well.

I think, Nursey, that it is right it should be degree based too now - but I also believe that some element of the vocational aspect should be retained (I'm not saying it isn't - just that some people might go into it without being really suited to it, because it's a degree they can do)

This is a bit of a controversial statement, but it's what MIL and some older nurses I knew in the UK do actually think - that some of the youngsters just starting having got their degrees feel that they shouldn't have to do the more menial tasks, because they have a degree. I doubt very much that these are in the majority - but there are some.

I do also worry sometimes that some people, who could be excellent nurses, are barred from it because of a lack of academic achievement.

We had the same problem in the labs, when that became degree-only entry. It was such shit pay, that they had real trouble attracting graduates into the profession (and yes IT IS A PROFESSION, thank you very much anyone who might think otherwise) - but then they revised the pay scales massively and basically dropped the bottom 4 or 5 levels off, so graduates started at a point I would only just have reached after 10 years in the profession on the previous pay grades!

We had several people join straight out of school, who were perfectly capable of doing the job, they just weren't suited to continuing academia, or needed to earn a wage. They went on to do degrees while working, as the culture was changing and degrees were becoming a requirement, so were clearly clever enough to do so.

I only have 2 B's and 2 C's at A level. I do have a 2:1 in a different degree from a red brick uni though.

That's still 14 points, isn't it, Holiday? Not exactly dismal!

nearyourwidmill you're extremely offensive and judgemental and making yourself look more than a bit silly.

I wouldn't even bother explaining what's wrong with your statements.

thumbwitch I think that's why perhaps universities favour applicants who have had work experience in a care setting. Mine was invaluable, I learned basic care skills that are an integral part of delivering care.

Sounds like they've got it sorted now then; my info is somewhat out of date, I have to admit, since it's been 15y+ since I worked in the NHS. :)

thumbwitch I think your MIL has a valid point. I am in my 50s and many of my friends of similar age think nursing standards have deteriorated since the degrees came in for exactly those reasons.

One friend was recently admitted to the ward she used to be senior sister on and had an appalling experience there, down to some younger nurse, which resulted in an official complaint

I can think we can all pass the blame onto the older or newer generations (for example I think some of the older nurses are quite militant and institutional in their approach) but I think the root of it is there's good and bad nurses of all different ages. Whether that be because they came into the job for the wrong reasons, or whether they've become disillusioned with the whole system and their standards have slipped (no excuse by the way, just saying)

All nurses, all nurses, should be able to complete even the most basic care tasks. The thing with a degree trained nurse is they also have the knowledge underpinning the things that are being done. It's important we learn models of care, A&P, nursing theory, intervention, observation methods, health promotion and understanding who what when where, risk analysis, ethics... etc etc. Things you can't just learn on the job. Things we need to look into deeply to understand.

Nurses have come a long way since they were first around, we now have much deeper knowledge, more responsibility and autonomy. Our skill set has had to broaden and enhance, things primarily done by doctors are now done by us. As well as still having to do the tea trolley

And that last paragraph demonstrates exactly why nurses (and midwives) should be paid properly for the job they do - they have taken on more of the doctors' responsibilities (as was) and this should be recognised in the pay they receive.

Scrolled down to the end to say I'd support a limited strike (less than a day, rolling strike, or something) if that was feasible.

Then I find this silly argument about academic qualifications, as if that's the only possible indicator for pay. Er...clearly nearyourwindmill hasn't looked at MPs academic qualifications, or a rather well paid industry like IT. I have worked with plenty of people in IT who didn't have degrees but were extremely well paid.

To give an indication, one left school at 16 and at the time I knew him, had just taken a pay cut to go permie at somewhere around 70k. I think he'd recently turned 30.

What's different in IT? Well, there are more men for a start. They don't expect to be martyrs for the public good and nobody expects them to either. And for a lot of the very well paid stuff, their work relates closely to profitability, so you can fuck off to a better paid job elsewhere if you're not feeling the love, because it'll make sense for another company to make that investment in you. That doesn't quite work for a maternity ward, as doing better doesn't relate to better funding as we've heard.

(And yes, yes, there are underpaid underappreciated people in IT too, but as an industry it's remarkably open to capable non-grads, with luck and a following wind of course - like with any industry it helps to know people and be of similar social group as well, it is never ever purely talent, there is always some luck and often some privilege too. But it's a good example of the folly of equating qualifications to money.)

windy is clearly a snob and a fool.....are people's wages to be decided on their school-leaving qualifications?-as she appears to think- or on the extremely onerous responsibility of the work they actually do? her arguments show a lack of common sense , ironically greatly at odds with the importance she seems to place on academic ability and intelligence

Whether I'm a snob, a fool, or both, it doesn't alter the fact that the NHS is in a complete mess and that nursing on too many occasions is failing to provide the care it should. As I have said before look at any thread on here about women who have suffered terribly before, during and after birth and have borne not just a baby but the brunt of many an unkind comment. I dare you to look up a health visiting thread and come back and tell us that women are on the whole satisfied with the band 6 service they are receiving.

Windy your comments are highly offensive. I'm really sorry you've had a bad experience but the midwife you describe is not representative of all nurses and midwives.

I am still training but everyone in my class is a mature student, they all have degrees in other subjects and some even have post grad qualifications. From working with them I can confidently say they are all dedicated and caring. They would all support a patient in complaining about sub-standard care. They all dislike bad nurses giving us a bad name. However they also dislike being blamed for the actions of bad nurses and would not appreciate being accused of not having 2 brain cells to rub together simply based on the actions of another individual.

Of the bad nurses I've come across they're pretty evenly spread between the generations. They are also vastly outnumbered by the highly intelligent, very caring and dedicated ones.

Striking over pay isn't going to get you a lot of sympathy when everyone else is in the same boat.

Strike over conditions, safety, training etc. if they are problems.

Striking over pay will just fuel the normal Public/Private debate and cloud the real issues which are many...

Don't get windy's comments at all. She thinks the service isn't good enough - so we should drive more people out of the profession? How can the service get better when there aren't enough people there to do the job?

Personally think this is quite a deliberate part of Gov policy to undermine the NHS. The NHA party could do with our support, I don't think things will really get better until the current government are out:
nhap.org/