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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if you would support a strike by midwifery/nursing staff?

366 replies

HolidayArmadillo · 15/03/2014 11:20

Just that really, would you support a strike by frontline NHS midwifery/nursing staff? Following the 1% 'pay rise' news (which is actually a pay cut in real terms and only for those who are experienced staff at the top of their band) more and more of my colleagues have been saying that if it came to it they would strike, many have been reluctant up until this point as no one wants to disrupt women/patient care but the workforce is becoming burnt out, disillusioned and unsafe.

Just wondering what the mumsnet collective has to say?

OP posts:
Nibledbyducks · 16/03/2014 08:47

I've often wondered why nursing staff couldn't have a "paperwork strike", in other words, make sure patient notes at end if the bed are updated, but refuse all the duplicate abduction triplicate form filling, if paperwork is getting in the way of patient care, then stop doing it and let the government work out how to lie about their statistics themselves.

IamInvisible · 16/03/2014 08:57

The MP pay review body recommended an 11% pay rise to come in effect from May 2015. David Cameron has said this is totally unacceptable and has threatened to get rid of the body if they don't come up with a more realistic figure.

Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 08:59

I don't believe a word of that Iam.

Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 09:01

Especially considering they mostly all bloody voted for it!

montysma1 · 16/03/2014 09:06

The government stock response for high bankers wages abd continued bonus payments despite all the cock ups................."We need high remuneration to attract and retain the best people"

If this were true ( it's not, attracts the greediest people certainly, not necessarily the best people), then it should apply across all sectors.

However, that's the government stance, so why would they only apply it to banking (and o f course to mps, who also apparently need good wages to attract "good people"

Shouldnt they be offering attractive attractive packages to HCPs to ensure that they attract "good people" or does that rule of thumb only apply when it suits them.?

Or, since they offer poor wages and poor terms and condition, are they by default only intending to attract crap people.? Because that's the logical extension of their oft used arguments (excuses) for high wages in some sectors.

ElsieMc · 16/03/2014 09:06

I do not support a strike. It will only lose you public support. We have to listen to our headteacher's politicising school assemblies over her pension rights (yes, really) and this seriously pisses people off. She has a good job in a lovely school - she works hard, yes, but so do so many other decent people.

In the area in which I live there have been several baby deaths at the local maternity unit which has featured on the news and public confidence is already severely damaged. It has also damaged the decent, professional staff's reputations and this would really be the final nail in the coffin. I think the Trust would use this to close the unit and transfer it elsewhere which they have been attempting to do for some time.

Just look before you leap.

Sidge · 16/03/2014 09:12

Trapper I'd love to look for a new job but due to my personal circumstances that isn't an option at the moment.

I am certainly not indispensable Grin but as with many jobs I have such a specific skill set a move into another area would be unlikely to offer more pay. I am thinking of a whole career change but not in a position to do that at the moment.

It just makes me sad to see what is happening within the NHS at the moment.

MoominIsWaitingToMeetHerMiniMe · 16/03/2014 09:20

I didn't think I could respect nursing and midwifery staff any more than I already did, but after reading this thread I'm in awe at the work you all do and the conditions you put up with, only to be treated so badly by those in control of your pay and working conditions. Thanks

Roseandmabelshouse · 16/03/2014 09:52

For people saying we have an amazing pension, you are slightly mis-informed. Our pension terms have changed a lot. Yes more recent workers are retiring on very good final salary pensions. Young nurses and midwives will be working until at least 65.

I can tell you now, I would not feel able to do my job safely at 65. I struggle now with the shifts and workload now and I am a fit, healthy, young mw in her 20s.

SilverDragonfly1 · 16/03/2014 10:42

To add to my previous comment- I have been hospitalised twice in the last five years, once for a condition that could have been very serious but wasn't in this case and once for a condition that genuinely nearly killed me. I would still 100% support a strike.

During my time in hospital and the many visits I have had with my children and parents for all sorts of reasons from a possibly broken finger to multiple attempted suicides, I've never seen any staff chatting or giggling over facebook, or doing anything except work at breakneck pace with no time to sit down for a moment. This is in wards, in a&e, in regular clinics. I've visited hospitals at least 6 times a year for various reasons over the last five years and frankly, 6 times means it's been a good year.

In all this time, one person has been a bit rude to me and that was a cleaner. And she probably felt entirely justified at the time!

What I have seen is untold problems that could be solved completely if there were more staff. Whether it's 7 hours waits in a&e- and we were the lucky ones that day-, dementia patients roaming the wards distraught and preventing anyone else from resting, patients pretending to faint in order to jump the queue, patients really fainting, patients wetting themselves or unable to have a cup of tea because no one is answering their bell, visitors making everyone miserable by staying for hours talking loudly til past 11pm, it could all be sorted with more staff.

One thing I would say having read the rest of the debate- nurses definitely need to find a way to let the public know what they're coping with. Unfortunately, I don't know what that way would be.

HolidayArmadillo · 16/03/2014 11:00

This is a fairly comprehensive job description on the NHS jobs website for a current midwifery post...

Key Duties and Responsibilities

  1. To take charge, in the absence of the midwifery matron, of a ward, Birth Centre or midwifery team and participate in the effective management of the ward/ Birth Centre /team, organising the staff to cover the unpredictable workload
  1. To develop a link role to provide enhanced care to defined groups (e.g. substance misuse, bereavement, diabetes etc)
  1. To enable the woman to remain the focus of care and work with her to develop her care plans based on good communication, appropriate information. As her advocate, she/he will work in a collaborative way and ensure good communication and liaison with medical colleagues, and all other agencies
  1. To work without supervision, according to NMC standards and rules
  1. Provide access into maternity services. To undertake a comprehensive risk assessment for all women and determine appropriate care pathways based on the risk assessment
  1. To be responsible for the active follow up of “hard to reach” vulnerable, women and to provide flexible, individually tailored care in these cases (including one/one parent education)
  1. To interpret and communicate laboratory results and arrange subsequent referrals as necessary
  1. To develop/maintain and utilise a sound level of clinical knowledge, competencies and specialised skills requiring clinical dexterity, in all areas (antenatal, labour and postnatal care). This includes encouraging normalisation of birth, waterbirth, cannulation, care of women with epidurals, administration of IV drugs, suturing, maternal and neonatal resuscitation, interpretation of CTG, assisting in theatre
  1. To work in a collaborative way and ensure good use of communication skills and liaison with all clinical colleagues and other professionals and agencies e.g. SCBU, GP’s, FNP, FOS, Health Visitors, Safeguarding Services etc
  1. To be responsible for identifying safeguarding of vulnerable adults and child protection issues, making appropriate referrals to Children’s services and ensuring effective multi-disciplinary communication. This includes attendance at Strategy, Case Conference and Core Group meetings and preparation and presentation of reports. The post-holder will have continuing responsibility for on-going monitoring, implementing agreed plans and liaising with the safeguarding specialist midwife and other professionals involved

  2. To provide psychological support for women and their families throughout the perinatal period. Especially in relation to drug use, teenage pregnancy, personal problems, housing, bereavement and traumatic birth, seeking advice and support as appropriate

  3. Working with the midwifery Matron to implement the wider Children’s Centre agenda, including plans to co-locate midwifery teams into Children’s Centres

  4. Become a role model for clinical excellence

  5. Contribute to creating a dynamic environment conducive to learning and professional development of staff including teaching of clinical skills to junior staff and to participate in audits of approved learning areas

  6. To ensure own professional updating through the completion of PREPP and to build a Professional Portfolio of evidence of continuing Professional Development

  7. Attend a full programme of statutory and mandatory training

  8. To support the research and audit programme within the department

  9. To maintain exemplary, accurate and contemporaneous records on mother and baby’s care at all times, including all discussions on care and information given

  10. To develop/maintain own knowledge of parent education choices and to support colleagues in providing overall programme for parent education

  11. To provide one to one parent education where required

  12. To promote and support breast feeding (seeking support and advice from colleagues and the specialist midwife for infant feeding for management of feeding problems)

  13. To discuss options and support parents in making informed choices for their care (e.g. re birth plans, pain relief, infant feeding and baby care)

  14. To maintain and develop knowledge of the Health Promotion agenda liaising with Health Visitors, Obstetricians, Physiotherapists and those agencies involved in the woman and baby’s well-being. Referral to appropriate services (e.g. Smoking Cessation Services)

  15. To plan, implement and evaluate labour and post- natal care for women defined as low risk

  16. To provide antenatal, labour and postnatal care for both high and low risk women, giving help and support to junior colleagues

  17. To utilise and maintain highly specialised skills requiring clinical dexterity including palpation, suturing etc.

  18. To be able to provide care and support to all women throughout labour

  19. To support low risk women (and occasionally with the support of the team leader/SoM high risk women who chose home birth against recommended best practice) in planning and having a homebirth

  20. To recognise when a pregnancy is developing into higher risk, take appropriate action and clinical advice by referring to an appropriate health professional, whilst providing continuing support.

  21. To conduct initial examination/assessment of the newborn at birth and refer as appropriate

  22. To develop and maintain excellent knowledge of all “skills drills” including adult and neonatal resuscitation, emergency breech birth, cord prolapse, shoulder dystocia and post partum haemorrhage

  23. To deal with obstetric emergencies quickly, safely and efficiently, summoning help and support as required

  24. To break bad/sad news and to provide a higher level of emotional support to parents in distressing situations such as for positive screening results, child protection cases, where there is on-going domestic violence, traumatic births, or where a baby has died or has congenital abnormalities

  25. To participate in the debriefing process following birth and untoward incidents

  26. To develop appraisal skills in order to contribute to the appraisal process

  27. To be aware of the Maternity Risk Strategy and to ensure proper reporting of all accidents/incidents within the department

  28. To participate in Trust audit activity as part of the Quality Assurance Cycle

  29. To assist in responding to complaints and taking corrective action to ensure Trust Clinical Governance and Risk Management policy is implemented

  30. To be aware of CNST Maternity standards and to contribute to achieving them through audit, implementation and maintenance of identified objectives

  31. To facilitate the achievement of objectives for all allocated student midwives. Completion of students learning documentation, giving guidance and liaising with the School of Midwifery as appropriate

  32. To communicate with the Supervisor of Midwives on professional issues concerned with practice

  33. To be aware of and base own practice on evidence based guidelines

  34. To be competent to use the Trust IT equipment and computerised midwifery system ensuring accurate data entry and use e-Searcher. To access e-mail account regularly (at least monthly)

  35. To be prepared to work flexibly, to ensure a comprehensive 24 hour service is always maintained (including on-call where appropriate)

  36. To ensure safe administration, storage and acquisition of drugs is maintained.

  37. To rotate between all midwifery areas at the discretion of the Clinical services Manager to provide a 24 hour service and to optimise personal development

  38. To maintain high standards of personal appearance in accordance with Trust/unit uniform/non uniform policy

  39. To assist in the development of maternity services to provide an effective, efficient and safe service in accordance with both Government directives and the Division ’s own vision and business objectives

  40. To promote a safe environment for women, babies, visitors and staff by adhering to Trust policies and procedures and by ensuring that safe working conditions are maintained at all times in accordance with statutory legislation and COSHH regulations

Working Environment:

Maintaining a safe clinical environment.

Supporting staff, women and carers in the hospital and community environment.

Direct women contact.

Unsocial hours on a regular basis, including night duty and on call.

Frequent exposure to stressful and unpredictable workloads.

Long periods of concentration to support women (both mentally and physically) through labour.

Frequent need to adopt different positions (kneel, bend, squat or stand) to support choice of birth position (whilst safeguarding own and other midwives’ Health and Safety).

Daily exposure to blood, vomit, excreta and other bodily fluids (with associated odours).

Emotional/mental exertion of managing emergencies and of supporting women in difficult circumstances (e.g. child protection cases) or when outcomes are not optimum (e.g. stillbirth, neonatal death or miscarriage).

Regular need to manage verbal and occasionally physical abuse from women, relatives and visitors.

Dealing with diversity in an ever changing environment.

First line managing emergency situations in non-hospital environment.

Oversee the safe use of drug therapy in an appropriate environment.

Administer drugs in accordance with Trust Policy.

Lone worker-involves working alone in the community and driving alone at all hours and in all weathers.

OP posts:
ImNotAFlower · 16/03/2014 11:14

I'm not sure what the fuss about increments is all about!I have just had my latest one... It worked out to be 7p an hour increase, I am just deciding how to spend it all Grin. The thing is the majority do not work for the NHS for the money and are well aware of the implications when they accept the job. I have worked for them for 12 years and could work for the private sector if I chose to, I don't therefore why moan?
Nurses and midwives do an amazing job under immense pressure and duress, do they deserve more? Absolutely! but do they HAVE to work for the NHS no.

NearTheWindymill · 16/03/2014 12:21

The complaints about retirement age are beginning to stick in my craw. It is not just midwives and teachers who will have to retire later. It is EVERYONE. I am 54 this summer and I can't retire until I'm 66. That is the same for every single person in the UK. If nurses/teachers become unable to fulfil their duties due to ill health their employers will either have to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act or they will take ill health early retirement. It is the same for everyone.

I'm also a bit confused about these bad working conditions - I don't know a lot of nurses but when my DC were at school; the mums who were nurses used to be glad to work double shifts (12-16 hours), nights, over weekends. They did 36-40 hours when their DH's were at home and had no childcare costs. I'm pretty certain too that they were on a bit more than £21k per annum. I seem to remember figures closer to £30-35k being mentioned. I didn't think that was bad for people who had got DDE at A'Level.

NurseyWursey · 16/03/2014 12:27

How patronising is your last comment. For the record I had to get 45 credits at Distinction, which are the equivalent of A's.

I don't really think belittling nurses is a good way to back up your opinion.

NearTheWindymill · 16/03/2014 12:40

It's a statement of fact.

HolidayArmadillo · 16/03/2014 12:41

Starting wage for a nurse now is 21k, it will have been a lot less several years ago. As you say. You don't know a lot of nurses.

OP posts:
NearTheWindymill · 16/03/2014 12:45

Yes, starting wage. But what are they on after 10 years and a couple of promotions? This isn't about starting wages and I doubt there are many nurses on £21k after 10 years experience. I started back at work 10 years ago at the bottom on the equivalent of £17k. In the public sector but because I took my qualifications and am good at what I do and now manage a team it isn't what I earn now. I think it would be helpful to have the facts and some information about when overtime becomes payable, working patterns, holidays, etc.

NurseyWursey · 16/03/2014 12:47

It's a statement of fact? No it's one example. I think you've really lost your right to debate when you have to start implying we're all thick to get your point across.

Thumbwitch · 16/03/2014 12:49

That IS a pretty comprehensive job description, HolidayArmadillo! Makes me even more impressed with anyone who chooses to do the job.

I'mnotaflower - I don't believe that people going into the NHS do realise exactly how wearing it can be - especially as conditions may worsen over their working life. When I started in the labs, my pay was abominable. As a graduate, in any other field, I could have been earning 50% more than I was. I chose to do the job because I wanted to - but I had to leave because the pressure of working continually below correct staffing levels was causing too much stress. I still miss the job - but not the stress that went with it.

NearTheWindymill · 16/03/2014 12:51

Nursing Times - Nurse Practitioner, GP Surgery, £48k plus benefits. Band 6 job - NHS website are £25,700 to £34,500. The pay bands for my public sector job don't look dissimilar - the people on the lower grades are very early career or only partially qualified.

NearTheWindymill · 16/03/2014 13:00

This is what the NHS website states as a requirement for entry onto a degree

You will usually need a minimum of five GCSEs at grade C or above (typically including English language or literature and a science subject), plus two A levels or equivalent. However, some universities may ask for three A levels so check with them directly.

This is what the same website says for entry into general nursing:

There are currently no national minimum academic entry requirements into nursing courses so each higher education institution (HEI) sets its own criteria.

The above two requirements spotlight the problem in my opinion. If nursing is to be viewed as a profession with a professional salary attached then the entry requirements need to be considerably more rigorous.

The old SEN/SRN system could do with a comeback except that the problem is it has sort of. The old SEN's were allowed to join the SRN's based on experienced which diluted the status of the role and then HCA's were brought on board to replace the old SEN jobs diluting standards even further. What seems to have been lost totally is the training that teaches nurses to nurse and that is what seems to be missing to me. Too many nurses don't even treat their patients with basic respect any more because they don't know how to because nobody has taught them.

HolidayArmadillo · 16/03/2014 13:04

In nursing a band 6 is a junior sisters post. Basically managerial. Yes you can progress up to nearly 35k, but that's after 10 years.

And I'm more than a little insulted at the insinuation nursing and midwifery is a part time pin money job for thickos to fit in around the main earner. For most of us it's the main or only income and we generally have degrees these days.

OP posts:
Thumbwitch · 16/03/2014 13:06

What many nurses consider to be the problem (and my MIL is one) is that nursing has lost its vocational status, through the apparent need for it to be degree-based.

NurseyWursey · 16/03/2014 13:06

nearyourwindmill a nurse practioner is miles different from a nurse. They have to take an extra degree, some of them have masters degrees so before you keep copy and pasting look into it a bit more

And you can post the entry requirements from now until Kingdom come, nursing is competitive and they select the best from the applicants. As I sure you should know nursing isn't just about academia. We have to complete a degree (exams, assignments etc) whilst working a forty hour week at a placement. So please don't try and suggest we're all thick. I have 15 a-b GCSE's. 45 credits at distinction. NVQ in health and social. NVQ in business. Diploma in emergency care and I'm completing another one now. I could have done whatever job I wanted but I chose nursing because I care for people.

HolidayArmadillo · 16/03/2014 13:09

A lot of nursing and midwifery cohorts are made up of mature students so a set criteria of 3 A's at A-Level is a fairly useless when it comes to judging their suitability to do the course. For midwifery at the institution I studied there were 28 places and 700 applicants, if you think against that kind of competition you can get on the course with not two brain cells to your name think again.

OP posts: