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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if you would support a strike by midwifery/nursing staff?

366 replies

HolidayArmadillo · 15/03/2014 11:20

Just that really, would you support a strike by frontline NHS midwifery/nursing staff? Following the 1% 'pay rise' news (which is actually a pay cut in real terms and only for those who are experienced staff at the top of their band) more and more of my colleagues have been saying that if it came to it they would strike, many have been reluctant up until this point as no one wants to disrupt women/patient care but the workforce is becoming burnt out, disillusioned and unsafe.

Just wondering what the mumsnet collective has to say?

OP posts:
demisemiquaver · 15/03/2014 23:43

why dont nurses go on strike about overworked work conditions in general, and having to do too many [formerly medical] procedures like 'doctors on the cheap' without their pay and status [but with their level of responsibility and chance of being sued] AS WELL AS their own jobs????????............all that unfair stress must be the main reason for them leaving the profession

NurseyWursey · 15/03/2014 23:44

Demis we have been informed we can't, striking is just for financial issues such as pensions and pay.

There have been many campaigns and petitions regarding fair working conditions

lolatu · 15/03/2014 23:47

NurseyWursey, that's besides the point really, the point being that if you try to justify a strike in terms of "the work done is important", then you're onto a loser because many similarly important functions are performed by much lower paid staff than midwives and nurses.

I'm on the fence on the issue to be honest, but these illogical justifications aren't going to win sympathy from the public at large, which is why I am trying to point them out.

demisemiquaver · 15/03/2014 23:48

well could they all just stop doing unpaid work and say they stop work when their shift ends ? if EVERYONE did that surely more posts would HAVE to be created ?

NurseyWursey · 15/03/2014 23:49

really lolatu then why are people saying we can't possibly strike because people's lives are at risk? If our jobs weren't as important then surely we'd be able to strike.. y'know like everyone else?

NurseyWursey · 15/03/2014 23:49

demise if we do it means patients suffer.

JohnCusacksWife · 15/03/2014 23:52

Nursey, I've read the thread. Everyone would like a decent pay rise. We're all facing more work with less resource. If you feel able to strike knowing the possible consequences then that's your prerogative...but I couldn't support you.

BillyBanter · 15/03/2014 23:56

Everyone should strike then.
the problem isn't that there is less money around, but that more of it has gravitated to the very richest.

lolatu · 15/03/2014 23:58

I'm not saying your jobs are not important, I am saying that there are many equally as important jobs that pay a lot less and have worse conditions than nursing. Striking in response to a pay award and attempting to use importance of the role as justification will not win sympathy from people doing those other roles, or anyone really who notices how illogical such a justification is.

demisemiquaver · 16/03/2014 00:00

Yes nursey but it leads to burnout which leads to suffering anyway, instead of an admiission thast nurses just cant do everything thats fobbed onto them by doctors and management[like an early post saying obs and care-pklans in triplicate....what for?????????]....THEY SHOULD DIG THEIR FEET IN FOR THEIR AND ULTIMATELY THEIR PATIENTS' HEALTH

Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 00:31

NHS Staff staged a strike / walk out over the H&SC Act. No patients died then. Cuts don't need to be made to the NHS at all. They've had their funding stripped to the bone. Been slammed by watchdog for fiddling their figures on how much 'extra' they've been given...that wrong they then put some BACK in the kitty last year but made it look like they were giving even more. Thousands of Nurses sacked etc and too great a workload on too little a workforce. All calculated and intended of course. NHS staff have campaigned hard to try and highlight many issues, not just on pensions but on the H & S C A. The private companies tendering the contracts and pushing nhs services out (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to write the names on here) and also this week the staff campaigning and trying to stop clause 119 from getting through. Which gave hunt power to close even 'good performing' hospitals... yet oddly enough no one in the media has dared to mention them. Not entirely suprising the mass protest they had outside the Tory Conference centre didn't get a mention neither. Hmm they are making it unworkable so they can say 'look it's unaffordable lets save privatise it!' I understand the whole concept of those on ITU etc can't afford to strike but the ones who can and want to. Yes I jolly well support them!

Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 00:38

Also to the ones saying it will put patients at risk. Don't you get it? Patients already ARE at risk. I have Nursing friends and family that are hospital staff. I've also seen it from the other end as a Mother (Dd under Cons care- often been admitted). There should never ever be a need to only just have two nurses on a full ward but this is what is happening. I can't do links but Google is awash with links about dangerous staffing levels. My DDs doctor has had to leave mid discharge examination before as he got bleeped to resus. He was the only one covering the ward AND resus. Now tell me that you think patients will only be at risk if NHS staff have a strike.

Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 00:43

lolatu it is because they can't. it's a Breach of their NHS Employment contract to strike against anything other IIRC. From my understanding the last walk out they staged was like this. They was campaigning over the health reform etc and intention was that they used strike as a platform for wider issues but everyone jumped on the 'look how much they get paid' wagon. Are you on Twitter? Welsh Gas Doc is a good source of info.

ZingSweetMango · 16/03/2014 01:04

I'd support a petition to raise wages for midwives & nurses, their jobs are essential and a proper pay rise is long over due.

I'm currently pg so a potential strike makes me worried.

I honestly don't get politicians, governments etc!
free school meals for infant school aged kids, regardless of income from September?! completely daft and waste of money! only those who are truly in need should receive this.

I think the money that they are going to fritter away on people who don't need it could easily have been used towards a pay rise instead.

(but I'm crap at these kind of matters, so my logic is probably rubbish too)

Piscivorus · 16/03/2014 01:17

Zing With respect this is part of the problem. The NHS is made up of many different professions but the public only know about doctors and nurses so to say you'd support a petition for raised wages for nurses and midwives does not solve the problem. What about the psychologists, pharmacists, physios, speech therapists, radiographers, etc?

You think about nurses and midwives now but what about after baby is born and you need health visitors and GP practice staff to continue that care?

ZingSweetCoconut · 16/03/2014 01:25

you are right, of course!

I was only replying based on the title!

ZingSweetCoconut · 16/03/2014 01:26

although a speech therapist going on strike wouldn't put our lives at risk

IamRechargingthankYou · 16/03/2014 01:30

Sorry - I started writing and found it hard to stop...

No I wouldn't support a strike - I think rather than look at what you don't have, try and list the terms and conditions of your employment with a more neutral mind. Then compare this with the statutory minimum levels - which are there because many employers would pay and give less if they could.

Yes it appears that many public sector workers feel 'undervalued', and I think a lot of this is created by a 'group mentality' effect - all the 'normal' gripes and moans have been turned outwards - oh look there's a filthy toilet that needs cleaning, it's the government's fault for not providing enough cleaners - not oh look there's a filthy toilet and I can't see a cleaner about so I suppose I'd better clean it so it's ok for the patients, even though I really don't want to and it surely isn't my job.

There is a huge wastage of public funds throughout the public sector generally because of the lack of accountability, lack of 'business' acumen and budget control, an inability to streamline the non-human resources and a tradition of turning a blind eye to blatantly 'wrong' things - from the small to the hugely negligent - because if you're going to 'rock the boat' you'll soon be out.

People-wise it appears that rarely the best progress in their careers accordingly, in fact for leadership positions it seems those keen to progress their own needs do better than those keen to progress their institution for the good of all.

The present government inherited huge public debt and despite all the cuts, public expenditure has increased. The recent decades of public sector 'professionals' working 25 or so years before retiring on a final salary pension at 55, with incremental as well as promotion pay rises, secondments (if you fancy a little change or your workplace would really like to get rid of you but it's too difficult to sack you), the 'free whilst receiving full salary' access to career-orientated qualifications, the widespread acceptance of 'stress' as a valid reason for extended periods of paid sick leave, the post-early retirement return to the workplace in a different role...and on and on...

These and many other things are unsustainable...we all need to feel a bit of pain. When I started 'grafting' at 15 - full on full-time hard labour work, I was to retire at 60 and receive my state pension, this has gradually moved to 66 and will probably be at least 67, so although I've very nearly qualified for my full state pension already, I'll have to work even longer before I can get it. So rather than 8.5 years to wait it's currently 14.5, not quite doubled but nearly. I have done few jobs in which I felt 'valued' by employers (hence I've been primarily self-employed for nearly 20 years) and where I have been valued it's been shown with appreciation and not an hefty pay packet. I have found value in doing the best at whatever job I do, so I'm cleaning a toilet I'm going to clean it really well. I chose this 'working life', rejecting the 'pathway' to 'recognized' success that I was expected to follow and I don't regret it.

All my nearest family work in the public sector, I can honestly say it hasn't made any of them nicer people, their character and individuality and ability to undertake 'random acts of kindness' in an 'unrecognised' way has been replaced by a smugness they link to their 'value' through their job titles. The retired deputy head never really liked children much and their parents were even worse but she liked her post-retirement part-time SEN 'consultant' job - particularly when her workplace would decamp to a seaside hotel for a few days for some "team bonding", the nurse having put in minimal effort to turn her Diploma into a mediocre 2:2 Degree whilst fully funded on full salary is rewarded with money, power (and no waiting time for a knee replacement needed due to her obesity) and now feels the need never to wish to help another human being again unless she's paid for it - she actually used to be quite nice; and the ex-policeman - pensioned out early due to PTSD, helped by his wife's reminders to look depressed if he opened the door or left the house - "Face" she would say to him. And how the Civil Servant even ended up being one in the first place is bad enough - just take it that it helps if your boyfriend is one, and when he kicks you out because you're a selfish twunt -that means 8 months off sick with stress and a transfer to a lovely job, allegedly helping 'war veterans', although you had no time of day for the 'veterans of wars gone by'.

These are examples of people I know very well and I can think of many more examples of people that have become similar through joining the public 'workforce'.

To all of you stop moaning about your job and everything about it, find your 'value' not from me or anyone else but through doing the best at the job that you do - do it well irrespective of the conditions. Care about it more than your own sense of importance and you will find that others will value you too and appreciate you more for it.

NurseyWursey · 16/03/2014 02:48

To all of you stop moaning about your job and everything about it, find your 'value' not from me or anyone else but through doing the best at the job that you do - do it well irrespective of the conditions. Care about it more than your own sense of importance and you will find that others will value you too and appreciate you more for it

I read your post with an open mind until you concluded with this. Again it's the mentality than anyone dealing in healthcare should be expected to be saints, martyrs. 'do it well irrespective of your conditions' well yes we do. But there's a line when it becomes completely unsafe to do our jobs and that line has been crossed.

So please do carry on about our 'sense of importance' when the only thing we want is fair pay and working conditions. It's not too much to ask.

HolidayArmadillo · 16/03/2014 05:55

I always do my job to the best of my ability. But I'm exhausted. And so many members of the public think I'm a lazy uncaring bastard put on this earth to deny women pain relief just because of my job title. It gets wearing, the least I should be entitled to it proper remuneration from my employer, who just so happens to be the government, because I have no one else to complain to, so I know that private sector workers have it bad too, I do and I know that they feel a sense of ownership because 'their taxes pay my wages' (if I'd had a quid for every time some arsehole said that to me I'd not need a pay rise) but my taxes contribute too, I get to pay twice for being a midwife, once through taxes and again with my family and life and yes I could leave (and I'm seriously considering it) but where would the nhs be if we all did that? As someone up thread said our pay review body recommended a 1% increase across the board! not taken into account! the mp pay review recommended 11% 'oh we must take it, we don't want it of course but that is what the pay review said'. It's interesting that Scotland can afford to ignore the government recommendations and give everyone the 1%, THATS all in it together 'it's shit but we're all getting the same, suck it up' not dividing and ruling between those who get the pay rise and those who don't. If I were Scottish right now I'd be voting Yes and seeing how we got on away from Westminster rule.

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Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 08:09

"Do it will irrespective of the conditions" Hmm . Pray tell, when a Nurse is left on a ward of 32 patients with only a trainee Nurse to help. How are they meant to 'do their job well' exactly?...

Sidge · 16/03/2014 08:14

My post wasn't an argument for striking. It was in response to the "if you don't like it then get another job" brigade.

I was trying to point out that if we left our jobs because we we're dissatisfied with the pay and conditions (which is 5 out of 5 in my team) then patients would be stuffed.

Replacing us with agency would not happen as it would be too expensive, and very few agency nurses would have the skills we have which are which are specific to practice nursing. So until replaced, there would be no nurses to do those things I listed. Patients already have to wait long enough for their appointments, waiting another few months would tip them over the edge!

The NHS is being decimated from the inside out and something has to change.

Misspixietrix · 16/03/2014 08:20

Sidge it is frightening how many believe what they are being fed just because it is in print.

Trapper · 16/03/2014 08:34

Sidge, if you are genuinely only staying in your job because of what would happen if you left, you should probably have a rethink IMO. Nobody is indispensable, and this kind of thinking limits your earning potential. Think you can earn more and get better job satisfaction elsewhere? Go for it! You will be more productive if you are happy. Someone will take your job and be happy doing it for the money too - if no one is available then salaries will increase (supply/demand and all that).

HolidayArmadillo · 16/03/2014 08:35

Plus, NHS cogs turn very slowly, I was interviewed in June and didn't start until October. Not unusual. Wonder how a 4 month wait for new staff would go down if we all left because we were unhappy?

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