Disagreement over Maternity Leave vs. Extended Paternity Leave

[SybilRamkin]

A friend of mine, let's call him A, is having a disagreement with his DW, and I offered to canvas opinions for him on AIBU. Please be gentle with him, he's a sensitive soul!

Before the birth of their first DC, A and his DW had planned for DW to return to work after 9 months and for A to take 3 months' EPL to allow him to have some lovely bonding time with their DC. However, last week, 7 months into ML, DW announced that she would not be returning to work at 9 months after all, and that she intended to take the full 12 months herself before returning to work. A was very upset, as he'd already arranged with his work to take the time off, and was really looking forward to having 3 months as primary carer to his PFB. He attempted to reason with his DW, but she refused to agree to him taking any EPL at all - her view is that she gave birth to their DC, and so she should be allowed as much time as she wants to spend at home.

Pertinent information:

1. A and his DW earn roughly the same salary give or take c.£20 a month, and DW is intending to return to work FT.

1. A cannot afford to take 3 months of unpaid parental leave in addition to the 3 months of unpaid ML his DW plans to take. They had only budgeted for one of them not to be earning.

1. DW is not breastfeeding (hasn't since DC was 3 months old).

So MNers - does A have a moral right to be the primary carer for his DC for a few months' bonding time or is his DW right that since she gave birth to their DC her claim trumps his? And, perhaps more importantly, what should A do about this (if anything)?

The woman gave birth 9 months ago, not 9 days ago or 9 weeks ago, I don't think she will still be recovering from the birth and if she is most jobs are less physically and emotionally as intensive than running around after a newly mobile toddler

I hear about crap dads so often, I read about them on mumsnet and I have lots of friends who have truely crap partners. Things like dads not taking time off work to look after sick kids, dads prioratising their hobby or carear over their kids, absent fathers who give up their job to avoid paying child support, dads who only want to care for their kids every other weekend or dads who just couldn't give a fuck and abandon their kids altogether.

I don't know any crap dads in Sweden, If parents split up the mum and dad have 50/50 care for the kids. Dads are just as likely to look after ill kids. Dads in general show more physical affection to their kids and the men I know cook, clean and look after the home just as much as the women. I worked with kids and out of probably 100 children there were non who had absent fathers, many had seperated parents but the child still spent 50% of the time with their father.

I believe that it is the early bonding time that fathers and children have that encourages fathers to be so involved and rightly so an equal parent to the mother.

It is seen as so important that parents share parental leave that for every day the father takes we get a bonus, this bonus works out at around 1500 pounds a year.

I think that something is going seriously wrong in the UK regarding the way some fathers are able and willing to just walk away from their family, I think that 3 months paternity leave would be a good place to start to try and change things.

The potential damage that seperation from the mother would do is much less than the damage that an emotionally, physically or practically absent father would do in the future.

We did this too. It was much easier for me to leave DS2 with his Dad looking after him than it was leaving DS1 at nursery. He settled in a lot more quickly to nursery too when my husband went back to work, although I suspect that is just his different nature. Plus DH would do the getting up in the night too. DS2 still prefers me to his Dad for comfort even though we both work four days per week and have a day at home with the kids. DS1 is the opposite in that respect!

I would have loved the opportunity to go back to work free of worry about DS settling at nursery, and knowing he was with his dad.

We weren't able to share leave as he hadn't been in work long enough, and for men, this means they are not entitled to anything.

I think it would make a massive difference if some portion of leave was reserved for each parent.

.. And as for the idea of needing 9 months to get over the rigours of childbirth- oh please

I needed the last months of maternity leave to recover - not from childbirth but from the first 6 months of maternity leave - which were incredibly difficult and exhausting (much more than with the "average" newborn in my case, due to various factors).

If that is the case here, then why should the mother do the shitty months at the start and the father get to take over just when the child is getting more interesting and much easier to look after?

Of course it may be that A's baby is the easiest child in the world and his wife doesn't need any recovery time. But we haven't been given that information.

Well, it will depend on how hands on he is now.

Has he had a whole day in charge of DC? Does he take their DC out for the day, do lots of nappy changes, does he make their DC's meals at the weekends (at 7 months, if not BLWing, I assume the DC is having their own meals made, or at least the adult's food pureed). When they are going out for a day, can he just pack up the changing bag with everything they need for the day, or does his DW do it? (or tell him what's needed to be added each time.) Does he think about when the DC will need their next bottle and stick the kettle on -without being asked - an hour before hand?

Or does he default all care for their DC to his DW at the weekend, having not shown her that he'll be fine being in sole care for 3 months? It's going to be hard for the DC to be left with someone who's not Mummy after 9 months of just having her, it's one thing to be then left with a professional nursery nurse who'll know how to look after their DC, but if 'A' hasn't been a hands on dad at the weekends/free time now, then he's going to be 'learning on the job' - so DC will have no mummy there, and no routine. For the DW, going back to work is really hard, even if you are 100% happy with your childcare, if he's slightly worried about it, it's going to make the return to work sooo much worse.

If he has been very hands on and shown her at weekends he can do it all on his own, then his DW is being a little unreasonable (but leaving your DC at 9 months is hard, so it's forgivable, although she might have to back down), but if not, then he's being unreasonable, and will have to spend the next 3-4 weekends proving he can do it without help or guidance.

Thing is minipie she didn't (apparently) say "it's been hard for me, I'd like us to discuss reducing/dropping your share of the leave so I can recover". She just announced a fait accompli, and close enough that it's barely enough notice to rearrange, given notice required for employers.

Why would we assume Daddy is incompetent, given that he's been expecting to take sole care for his child?

I'd further say, personally speaking, I expect a man to run around after me a bit, not the other way around. This has always happened, and my friends are the same. If I had to appease a man and do something I really didn't want to do, after going through the rigours of giving birth to his child, then all hell would break loose. It would of course cause resentment in the relationship which would fester and build. The same might happen to the man of course. In which case he maybe should find a woman who does more precisely what he wants and who will agree to him having 3 months paternal leave. When he has another baby with his new partner.

Wow. Just wow.

I would hope nearly every dad can do that marywestacott?

Slightly - not assuming, but it would be the deciding factor in if she'd be happy to leave her DC with him or not. If he hasn't proved he can do sole care (not just say he could, but shown it) then her "we're not doing the mat leave split, no discussion" stance makes perfect sense.

If not, then she's been far more unreasonable (although understandable, still unreasonable).

On the face of it she is being unfair. She is renaging on an agreement without being willing to have a discussion. Going back to work isn't going to be easier in 3 months and having A at home might well ease the transition. I am the WOHP and DH was a SAHD and now runs a small business at home. Our DC have managed to securely attach to both of us.

George - a lot don't. A lot of dads of babies around 7 months old do just leave it to their DWs and default to them, doing what they are asked to do, but not taking responsibility. I'm always astounded and realise how lucky I am with DH, although he didn't have DC1 for a whole day without me being there until around 10 months. (and the house was like a bomb had hit it when I got home)

Wife sounds like a self centred cow to me.

She doesn't have the interests of either her child or her family at heart here, her motivations are purely selfish.

And as for the idea of needing 9 months to get over the rigours of childbirth- oh please

I got DVT 9 months after childbirth just after going back to work. I'm firmly of the opinion that it takes most women a year to go physically back to normal after birth but with saggier bits.

Irrelevant. I think the wife in this thread is being unfair for not discussing her change of heart before making a decision.

slightlyglitterstained I agree presenting a fait accompli is out of order. I sort of assumed there was in reality more to it than that and the "fait accompli" is a one sided misrepresentation of what really happened.

I was gutted when I returned to work ft after 9 months with dc1 and oh became sahd. It's very unfair that she's gone back on her agreement but I can understand the fear of returning to work and leaving her gorgeous bundle even if it is with his/hers daddy.

He can take 4 weeks of unpaid parental leave so perhaps she could take 11 months, perhaps use her holiday allowance to take her nearer 12 months then he could use a month of maternity and a month of parental leave

I think it was absurd for them to agree an arrangement like this when neither knew how the other would feel at this stage.

It could easily have been the other way round - if he decided he wasn't cut out to be a SAHD would everyone say he was being unreasonable? Or just honest and realistic?

Olgaga, it's less the change and more the unilateral announcement. Plus if he decided not to do it, she could continue for 12m or return after 9m - his decision has less impact on her than hers does on him.

The wife is being completely unreasonable. This sort of attitude should make A seriously consider if everything is ok in the marriage as it doesn't appear that she cares at all how he feels .

Op With the dw changing her mind on the agreement about the baby, it does raise the trust issues in the relationship.

I feel sorry for A :(

Not fair for the wife to change the agreement without discussion at such a late stage.

I think they should go back to the budget and arrange 13-14th months for A to stay at home while wife returns to work. Is this possible? Annual leave? Parental leave? Can he discuss this with his work? It will mean sacrifice for both parents over the next 7 months, belt tightening etc.

since she gave birth to their DC her claim trumps his?

I would have serious trust issues if DH said he had more claim on DS or DD. We are equal parents and make choices together.

What next, he doesn't have any input on nursery/school places, medical treatment, MMR vaccination, religion.

Will she always have the last say in the child's upbringing.

She is being massively unfair on her DH.

If I was the dad in this situation I would be thinking really hard about conversations over the last few months,had I missed any tentative efforts for her to broach the subject,had she said to me she had reservations or concerns,how many times had I heard "the is going to be hard".

Most people would not just announce this was going to be happening when something else was agreed. I would be wondering if anything had been said that I did not pay attention to

I very much doubt she just announced it. I expect that's just the way A is choosing to tell it.

I would be trying to find a way for the husband to take one month leave after the wife goes back to work at twelve months, that way the baby gets to have longer at home before starting nursery and the dad gets to experience being a primary carer.

When my PND was bad the thought of going back to work and leaving my baby made me feel terrible, I just could not cope with even the idea of it.

They really do need to talk, he should not insist they stick to the agreement but he should insist they talk about things.