to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

Yeap, you could average if all out icebeing, and agree on a set of criteria for measuring 'successful outcomes'- whether that be measuring parental incomes 10 years down the line, or A Level results among children who went to nursery/ didn't go to nursery etc etc

But really, hand on heart, how many parents really go away and read manuals or research projects which probably bear little relations to their own circumstances?

As a parents I'm not interested in averages. I'm interested in how my children are faring, and the quality of childcare options available to me, in my location, in my price bracket.

I didn't read research papers and manuals about breast feeding either. There's a lot to be said for trusting that the vast majority of parents are capable of making their own decisions for their own family

How do you define your variables and measure outcome?

Surely you can look at 15,000 ff babies and 15, 000 bf babies and test IQ at 5 and the draw some conclusions.

But you have to control fir socioeconomic factors. That can be done.

But childcare? What outcome would you measure? I know they have measured cortisol levels but the way that data was interpreted is controversial. We all have cortisol in our systems. How big is the effect?

And are we happy about using educational attainment as a measure if success?

Maybe it's too much of a hot potato and risks upsetting the apple cart!

Could a study control for introverted and extroverted types?

Janey of course we can all find research to prove what we want. But looking at a body of evidence about a certain topic over time you tend to see evidence build up over time to support one position more than another.

That is how medical and psychological treatments (for example) become acceptable, there is enough body of research to support a position. And all the while there are studies with differing results but a majority position can be reached.

Also there is huge variation in the quality of research, which again those trained to examine research in public health/psychology etc learn to distinguish, but a bit difficult to differentiate from a quick google search on, say, "effects of childcare".

I haven't done an exhaustive review of the research, but as someone working as a psychologist in child and family mental health, I know there has been a huge increase in interest and knowledge about attachment in babies, and the effects of attachment on the brain (only available in the last couple of decades as brain imaging technology has improved).

The evidence I have seen is enough to, at least, ensure my kids have a primary caregiver (pref. Mum and/or Dad or a family member they will have ongoing contact with) that they spend most of their time with when they are 0-2.

To reiterate, I am a part-time WOHP! So is DH.

ubik the study that is currently being done to see what things most effect childrenis outcomnes uses, I believe, educational attainment as one of its measures.

I don't think it's that it's a hot potato. I think we're constantly bombarded with 'research' of questionable rigour on so many aspects of life, which frequently is contradictory. As a parent I don't want to tie myself in knots trying to follow what the latest piece of 'research' tells me. I'm up for hearing reliable, valid information which helps guide me in making choices for my family- but it's just that: a guide. DH and I know our children best. And we're not even talking about consistent, reliable evidence when it comes to childcare. Honest to god- if you led your life following the 'research' you'd be whipping your children in and out of childcare every time the wind changes

Chunderella

I was giving examples really of how its pointless to generalise because what is a problem or benefit for one set of parents could be the complete opposite for another set.
I agree with Janey I'm not interested in studies, research, statistics etc because I know we are doing /have done what was right for our dc. As far as statistics are concerned you either fit that specific set of circumstance or you don't. If you don't they are meaningless to you.

I think I love chunderella

At times I wish I could be a SAHP . I cannot see that anyone has looked down on SAHPs in this thread, the on,y negative emotion I have is envy towards some of them that they had an actual choice.

But I'm not, and cannot be one. Yet I feel incredibly dismissed by some of you. Luckily my self esteem can take it, and knowing our son is in no doubt how loved and cherished he is helps hugely.

My husband has been unemployed three times in three years. Thank god we had my job. Thank god also for our wonderful childminder.

So we do what is best for the family.

I find it extremely odd that people feel qualified to suggest I should do anything but find the best childcare we can afford while I support my family?

Sure there isn't conclusive evidence about the effects, generally, of childcare on children. And I absolutely agree that there are lots of variables in type of childcare, quality of childcare provision and obviously the temperament of the child.

But as I said upthread poor quality, profit-driven nurseries do exist, the 'horror stories' we have heard from some nursery workers on this thread sound pretty genuine to me and someone's kids are spending their days there.

So even if your nursery or childminder is/was wonderful I think the question posed by the OP, and a debate about the daily experience of (especially) babies and young children who spend most of their waking hours in child-care is an important question for society.

And it does seem like there is lots of vitriol at posters who even raise these questions, and an assumption that they are scare mongering or pushing an agenda, or wanting to make parents feel guilty.

I appreciate that many don't have choice about using childcare but this doesn't mean that discussing the effects it has on children is not important.

As long as it is used to improve childcare rather than just being another stick to beat mums with.

Childcare is going to need to exist for decades to come...isn't it more important to work out how childcare can be better for children than asking if All childcare is good for ALL children...which is an impossibly nuanced question with too many variables.

Retro - with a partner earning a large amount, you are privileged and your choice to be a SAHM is easier than someone whose partner earns NMW.

Oh give it a rest Candy.

As others have pointed it out it isn't about me and the spiteful vitriol is getting tedious.I'm more interested in the posts which actually relate to the op and have several good points to consider.

I don't see that candy was spiteful or vitriolic unless I've missed something?

I can say what I like thanks.

For some families, both parents have to work to put food on the table which is better for the children than no food. It is the reality for very low income families. So, when people are saying it's not a big deal to take 10+ years out of work, I wonder if they are thinking beyond their comfortable lifestyles.

Certainly didn't say it was no big deal to take years out,I've had time out so actually know what it is like.I simply said many of different ages and incomes do it.

Circumstances differ,doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked.

I didn't say it shouldn't be asked but the fact is, for some people, it is virtually impossible. It is more than 'differing circumstances', some people unfortunately live in poverty and are stuck in the deprivation cycle. I certainly wouldn't patronise this sort person trying their best for their kids by asking them if they had considered other options!!

Retro... You do seem blinkered to the fact that you are privileged.

I'll let you in on a secret... I probably have more in common with you than not. I am privileged too: I earn a good salary now and so does my DH. We have good pensions as you do too. You had a career you enjoyed (and another you are planning to return to). I do too. Im sure you've had your struggles and make some sacrifices - same here. We're reaping the rewards now of senior positions in work and no childcare fees, but god I well remember the days of struggling to pay the nursery bill and put petrol in the car to go to work. I'm sure you love your children with your whole heart and seek to provide the best life for them. As I do for mine. The only difference is you decided to stop working and I didn't.

Yet you seem determined to drive a wedge between yourself and other parents who probably have very similar values and outlooks to you, the only difference being , they work and use childcare! And your refusal to see that you are relatively very privileged is bizarre. You managed to overpay your mortgage and pension prior to having children, you have a career you will get back into, and yet you refuse to see that not everyone is like you. Many people cannot afford to save, pay off their mortgage massively, take years out of work and keep their pension intact. And many other people might be able to afford it but don't want to stop working.

That is no argument for asking the question.

Many others may well be able to act on information,not seeing why their children should miss out should there be info worth acting on.There may not.

Hounding me as regards privilege is not needed,you just want to do it for some reason.

I don't have a "career" to return to,I don't want one,I simply now would like work/a job I enjoy and which will fit round my family,pay a few bills.

I've had my hard years and financially it's hardly a picnic now.

My life has no baring on the question in the op and no argument for not asking it.

Me too janey!

I'm absurdly privileged. Both in terms of the choices I've had and the money DH and I have made!

But you have to access enough imagination to see that other people don't have your good fortune. And that other poeple don't ewant to live as you do.

Someone withjout imagination is a poor specimen indeed. As a writer I'd be hard pushed tp think of a worse thing!

*As long as it is used to improve childcare rather than just being another stick to beat mums with.

Childcare is going to need to exist for decades to come...isn't it more important to work out how childcare can be better for children than asking if All childcare is good for ALL children...which is an impossibly nuanced question with too many variables.*

Agreed missfliss. And the quality of childcare and experience of children when in it, should be equally relevant and concerning to fathers as to mothers.