to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

'Disatisfied at what?'
Good question... It's mystifying

I couldn't agree more janey
Why are you soooooooo pissed off Retro

I love my life ,have high achieving ( going to medical school ) happy DC and a career I love.
What is wrong with my life Retro please tell me ?
Do I meet your standards ?

Do tell.

Where exactly am I displaying dissatisfaction,at what and why on earth would I be?

Because I agree with the op.

Retropear

Oh God no, don't disagree with the majority and agree with the OP, you'll be called dissatisfied.
Oh...... wait a minute

What does that even mean Morethan?

Very much agree with that last 'let them eat cake' point...

Also: no one has said all parents who stop working are doomed. Of course some people take time out of the workplace and manage to get back in... Some people change direction and re train... Good god I have over the last year appointed to my team several women who have had periods of time out of the workplace. No axe to grind here... I want the best person for the job- I think you'll find most people responsible for recruitment want the same - advertising and appointing is a costly business, we can't afford to get it wrong

All we are doing is p

And yet again you don't get it,it's not about you.It's about asking a simple question you don't want asking.

Oh and we're not privileged.We worked hard for it,went without and still do.

Sorry but if a perfectly descent thread is going to descend into bitchiness to make a point it's not really worth continuing.

Shame as we were all managing quite nicely before.

I don't think the question asked in the OP is a bad idea Retro
It doesn't apply to me in any way because my DC have not been in any type of childcare , DH and I have always shared care.

I think it is a valid question and a difficult one for many parents.

I just don't accept the judgement of parents who are doing their best and I really dislike the nasty judgemental attitude that you show to others who are not in the fortunate position that you are.

Posted too soon

We're pointing out the FACT that a huge proportion of women don't have adequate pensions - thats not an opinion but a statistical fact . Also a lot of people who've had time out of work do struggle to get back... Not you clearly retro but many people do

Nasty judgemental attitude- where?

Just to,point out many of us have dc late in order to save.

I suppose the difficulty with the question posed in the op is that childcare has so many different permutations.

The idea that staying at home with mummy automatically = good, clearly doesn't hold water. It's about good childcare vs bad childcare really.

But in the end most parents really are doing their best.

I think what riled alot of people were some comments upthread about Sky TV and holidays - that it's not ok to put your children into nursery to work and enjoy those things. Working parents on low incomes spend slot of time being told they cannot do/have things. I can really understand how those 2weeks can be so important. Lots of people 'work hard' for not much in return.

To return to the OP... Well, it was answered pretty much in the first page wasnt it? ... There are too many variables to make it a valid question.

Ubik there was far worse aimed at sahp and I certainly wasn't the one who mentioned Sky.

Re variables,there are variables in many studies which are accounted for and really if it is that impossible to reassure parents perhaps the gov should hold off funnelling parents down the route of cheap childcare.

But In the end most parents really are doing their best

I agree totally UBIK and loathe the judgemental comments to Mothers ( never fathers) along the lines of your pooor children etc
I whole heartedly agree that childcare should be the highest quality available but the reality is that sometimes it will be OK childcare not the best childcare.

I disagree Janey68. There aren't too many variables to make it a valid question.

There is massive variation in the quality of childcare provided, and questioning what it's like for children to be in these environments (especially when they're under 3 and are in care for the majority of their waking hours) is entirely valid.

Just because it may make parents who have to use childcare feel guilty, doesn't mean it's not a valid question to ask.

And it doesn't mean that people are are asking the question are doing so because they're scaremongering, or wanting WOHP to feel guilty, or have a chip on their shoulder.

Janey

Totally agree. There are certainly variables in what constitutes childcare, what sahps do with their dc. Different peoples finances, priorities, values etc.

Chunderella

I wasn't suggesting that all parents are able to save more, but just not to presume that some sahps haven't considered or made plans for their pension/retirement. In the same vane that some sahp's won't consider going back to work so employment opportunities aren't applicable either.

I think the question should be is childcare good for your children?
But that wouldn't be posed as there would be no argument.

There is no conclusive research though. We could all find research to 'prove' what we want it to when it comes to childcare. When it comes down to our own individual families - which ultimately is what really matters to each of us- we should make the decisions we feel are right for our own family.

As for the idea of 'funnelling parents down the route of cheap childcare '- hahahahaha- childcare in this country is the most expensive in practically the world! Any help the govt can give makes a mere dent.

Anyway- why would it matter to you retro if the govt did suddenly make childcare cheap as chips? You keep telling us that parents who want to stay home can just save up, over pay into their mortgage and pensions beforehand and take years off. So presumably they'd continue to do that if they want to stay home. Or does it just piss you off that other people might be getting childcare without having to spend quite so much? Should they only be allowed to enjoy a career if they're damn well paying every last penny on childcare?

No having provided Oustanding childcare and spent my whole working life with young children in several roles I know how important it is and actually care.

As taxpayers we should all care,the formative years are important.

Re variables there is nothing with more variables than bf/ff but we are continuously subjected to study after study, which collectively get acted on.

Most parents do care Retro
I would add that I care enough that I would never have considered a child minder under any circumstances.

I would suggest as parents we should all care ,taxpaying doesn't come into it.

But bf/ff is about health/IQ outcomes - these are measurable.

How do you judge a successful outcome? Using what values? IQ? Can you imagine how many variables you would have to control for? What about happiness? Can you measure that? Success? What does that mean? Exam results? Testing at 5?

Just because it may make parents who have to use childcare feel guilty, doesn't mean it's not a valid question to ask

Agree. I don't understand why some posters are so touchy about talking about child care.

In the nicest possible way I think they should give themselves a break.
As other posters have said there are so many reasons why people choose childcare and also why they have no choice and use child care.

All people using childcare will have done so having carefully weighed up all the variables they can within reason, and gone down that route.

So where does guilt come in?

Guilt only comes in when they have not thought about it and just done it, and are maybe secretly wobbling or arguing so hard and fast they they have to convince themselves. I am positive that 99% of parents have thought about it though.

So there is no need for guilt, if you feel you are 100% sure in your choice or in the fact you can't choose.

Exactly Ubik.

As for the idea of 'funnelling parents down the route of cheap childcare '- hahahahaha- childcare in this country is the most expensive in practically the world! Any help the govt can give makes a mere dent

Expensive but compared to other nations, questionable quality.

I think quality child care is the key issue here, and we should all be lobbying for quality first and foremost.

There aren't more socio-economic factors relevant to childcare than to BF/FF, there is simply the variation in quality of childcare and parental care that is extra. But as we can already work out from it being blindingly obvious that a stimulating interactive home is better than a park the buggy in front of the tele home and a stimulating interactive childcare setting is better than a strap them in the highchair till there parents arrive childcare, we can average across both of those factors and look at the average benefits/disadvantages.

People really get hung up on statistics being difficult...I mean they are...but we have professionals!