to ask if you would be happy to be operated on by a pregnant surgeon...

[Evie2014]

… who had been up all night with various pregnancy-related issues?

I'm 23 weeks pregnant with twins, and I've been up most of the night with preggo rhinitis, a grumbly tummy and the usual pregnancy insomnia. I'm heading into at least a 12 hour day at work, which will involve supervising people, directing teams and making relatively important decisions. I have quite a responsible job. Calling in sick isn't an option.

I average one day a week at the moment where I go in to work having managed an hour's sleep (despite going to bed early). I can honestly say that never in my professional life have I performed as badly as I do on those days. I've been making stupid rookie mistakes as a result of the awful state that comes from being pregnant, poorly and sleep deprived.

In the past, I've gone to work with ludicrous hangovers where I was probably still drunk from the night before . I definitely still performed better and made fewer mistakes on those ridiculously hungover days than I do during the present sleep-deprived pregnant days. (Pregnancy. The free hangover that never ends.)

I've learned from previous days like this. I'm going to warn two of my colleagues to keep an eye on my work today, in case I make a mistake. I have a lovely supportive team so that's not going to be a problem. However, there's no getting away from the fact that today is going to suck. I had a little cry in the bathroom as I pulled my exhausted body out of the shower just now, and then snuffled and said to myself, "Well, Evie, at least you're not a neurosurgeon. You can't kill anyone today."

But what if I WERE a neurosurgeon? Would you be happy for me to operate on you?

So basically OP wanted to know if people would like a tired surgeon and when they answered honestly, they are judgy pants and apparently should have used they psychic powers before answering?

The hormones and lack of sleep are getting to you OP!

OP, whatever your job is, I bet they'd miss you less than you think. Especially if you're as muddled as that OP makes you seem.

DailyBread, I hope you’re not as horrible as that paragraph makes you seem. I hope that made you feel better cause it certainly didn’t do anything to brighten my rather difficult day.

I suppose I am wondering if pregnant women with jobs where people’s lives hang in the balance are really able to put their hands up and say “sorry, I know it’s short notice, but I can’t work today because I don’t feel well and it’s pregnancy-related”. WITHOUT being worried that they will be judged as “weak and female”. And if there is a risk that they will be judged, do they keep silent and just get on with the job, even if that means risking errors?

There was a thread here a little while ago where someone was pregnant and feeling a bit off and was wondering whether or not to take time off work and there was a chorus of judgemental “you’re pregnant not ill” comments.

Would a pregnant surgeon walk in to work and cancel a long-scheduled operation for a patient that desperately needed the surgery because she had had a bad night? Or would she be more conscious of what people might think of her and just go ahead anyway? In this sense, olympicsrock, I don’t accept your dismissal of the thread title as “ridiculous”. I think it’s a valid point, and I’m wondering how frequently it happens.

I suppose the issues I wanted to raise (in my garbled sleep-deprived way) were more to do with what someone has referred to as the “superwoman” thing. Jess03, the superwoman myth hurting women is interesting. Before I got pregnant I thought I was able for anything. I would have rounded on anyone who dared even hint that women were at a disadvantage because of their biology (in any job that didn’t involve actual physical prowess). Now I’m beginning to wonder if we should really expect women to be able to perform to the highest level if they are pregnant.

It has shaken me to realise that pregnancy has made me weaker. That no matter how I try to organise myself (early bedtimes, eating properly, trying to be really healthy) it is still really difficult to do my job well and be pregnant.

If you are looking for validation about taking time off, I'm happy to join the choir... But maybe it would be better to do it in ways that don't perpetuate other stereotypes? Crikey, Sunnysummer, isn’t that very harsh? I think your comment is unjust because it’s in fact, exactly what worries me. I’m worried about being seen as the weak, malingering preggo woman who can’t be taken seriously. If I was a surgeon (AND I’M NOT!!!), that type of attitude might make me go ahead with the surgery despite the dizziness after a rough night…

Anonymai did you not read the whole thread or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

OP, the reason why there are protected rights around maternity (in the UK) is because biology does put women at a disadvantage. If either sex could be pregnant then you wouldn't be looking at yourself as a "weak woman" in pregnancy, you'd accept that there are times in people's lives - bereavement, illness, whatever - when their work might be affected (and maybe not for all people - some bereaved people may take comfort from work for example). Therefore pregnancy would be "one of those times" when someone might be affected, it's the luck of the draw but it's probably more likely than at a "normal" time.

Do you see what I mean?

Would a bereaved surgeon who'd been crying all night about the loss of his mother cancel a day of operations? It would be up to his judgement but to do so would not make him weak.

Yes, I read the whole thread. Did you? Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

charitygirl and curioussuze you made me laugh out loud. And “you can’t have a day off every time you have a bad night but do try and have the odd one,” has been the best advice on this thread.

Ah yes, the driving, jellyandcake, that’s another issue. Yes, I drove to work this morning and I was dizzy from lack of sleep. How many pregnant women do this every day? How many sleep deprived mothers of toddlers do this every day?

I’m just aghast to realise how incompetent I can be if I’m sleep deprived. I hate feeling unprofessional - yes, I learned my valuable lessons from going to work hungover in my younger years! But now unprofessionalism seems unavoidable, and it’s not my fault.

I suppose what I’m getting at is the shock I’m experiencing at the fact that impending motherhood (and by all accounts ACTUAL motherhood) is going to make me less functional, less professional, and more irresponsible (getting behind the wheel of a car while dizzy). And there isn’t any way out.

It’s a shock to the system. I have barely had a day off sick in ten years. It’s frightening to me that I’ve gone from Supergirl to Below Average Woman because of basic biology. It makes me wonder if women DO deserve to be judged as failing to measure up to men… (what a horrid thought).

Evie, you sound like you've had a really shit day and you are growing two small human beings inside you.

You are allowed to be as pissed off as you like

Having said that, I think you're being a little unfair on some posters who posted with the best intentions advising you to take time off work. The system which affords you no paid sick or maternity leave is at fault here, not well meaning posters who recognise that you need a rest.

You can only do what you can do. We are all limited by our physical conditions; some permanently. To see this as failure is a very capitalist, patriarchal way to view it- growing humans is not seen as valid a use of your time as paid work, and this is reflected in the (lack of) maternity package you receive.

Expecting pregnant women to perform as they did when not pregnant and penalising them for not doing so is not a feminist action. It's the opposite.

I hope you get some rest, and wish you all the best with the rest of your pregnancy.

Anonymai, I asked a question regarding a hypothetical surgeon who had been up all night with pregnancy related issues. And some people answered that question.

But others didn't. And some of those that didn't answer the question got caught up in the unrelated issue of me and my job and why I went to work this morning. And some of them judged me for not calling in sick, which annoyed me because assumptions were made about my circumstances which weren't accurate. Nothing to do with expecting people to use their psychic powers.

I thought you'd have figured all that out if you'd read the whole thread. But maybe you just wanted to be snide and belittling and any thread would do to skim through and jump on the end.

Yes this is what I found hardest to accept about pg and motherhood Evie, suddenly I caught every bug going, made silly mistake after silly mistake when tired and I went from feeling like a success to feeling like that person people tolerate. Dd got every bug going too and dh could never take time off so my career was quickly a joke. I think of you can afford a nanny, a childminder or family help you may get more flexibility, the 8-545 nursery was a disaster.

"It’s frightening to me that I’ve gone from Supergirl to Below Average Woman because of basic biology. It makes me wonder if women DO deserve to be judged as failing to measure up to men… (what a horrid thought)."

I repeat: YOU ARE GROWING TWO SMALL HUMAN BEINGS INSIDE YOU.

Can men do that? Can they?

I think you need to change your definition of Supergirl

evie, you asked a question. People answered it. Discussion developed and sidetracked. Like it does on every thread. Stop taking your bad mood and issues with your shitty maternity situation out on me.

Oh, and making a point of highlighting a typo makes you look like even more of a grumpy dick.

ElephantsandMiasmas you made me smile and brightened my day. Thank you for getting it. You've expressed exactly how I feel. I think I needed someone to say it for me.

And yes I work in a VERY sexist industry in a VERY sexist country.

tethersend you make a very good point.
climbs down from haughty tree

To everyone: genuinely, I'm sorry for ranting and getting grouchy. I know everyone just meant well. Thank you for the input.

I actually think you have a point. Some women will struggle in pregnancy, some more than others but myths around pg do not help.

The 'you're pregnant not ill' for example can be create huge issue with someone with serious back pain in pregnancy it insomnia as yourself. I know I had to have 3 weeks off in my first pg fur to tiredness and pain. I also refused to travel at extremely short notice after 30weeks. I had lots of in my very make orientated industry. And that was in the uk!

On the other side some women have no issue at all during their pg and will carry on working until more or less the end. And being pg certainly hadn't stop them from taking decisions!

The issue isn't about of though. It's about accepting that you can be ill, men or women, and how ill you need to be before not going to work. It just happens that when women are pg they are likely to be 'ill' than out of pregnancy.

Don't forget as a father of a toddler your DH will also be sleep deprived.

Good point, moment- one of the reasons why pregnancy related sick leave must be recorded separately in the UK and cannot trigger disciplinary action.

And the only reason you are talking about women deserving to be judged is because you are coming from the mindset that male is the norm.

You have a 40 year working life. For, let's say, two lots of six months of that time, some women may have additional illnesses brought on by a pregnancy that, on the whole, both a working man and a working woman have planned and certainly that both a man and a woman have had a hand in.

Be kinder to yourself.

I thought you might. To me you sound like an exhausted person who NOT ONLY works full time BUT ALSO is growing people inside her AND WHAT'S MORE is having to battle in small ways every day against a tide of sexist shit. You sound like someone who's so worn out she's starting to believe the bastards. Beginning to think that maybe when people say ignorant, thoughtless and harmful crap about women's capabilities, they are onto something.

Do you think men taking time off to recover from an op for testicular torsion wonder whether that means men aren't really suited to the workplace? Of course not!

We are all people with our own unpredictable and unique mixed bag of physical and mental good times and bad, sexism just often makes it seem otherwise.

Remember that none of your precious clients would exist, or the people who spout sexist crap either, if it wasn't for millions of women volunteering to go through just what you're going through now. Babies aren't actually optional to the human race's continued existence :)

Don't give up, you sound funny and wonderful and bloody tired.

I'm a freelancer; and felt bloody ill during my first pregnancy (and not fabulous during my second). I do sympathise.

I think I would prefer not to be operated on by someone who wasn't feeling the full ticket, really, in answer to your first question. Though isn't there evidence (this is specific and surgeon-related, I do realise you are not a surgeon) that surgeons often operate better when hyped up on adrenaline? But that may be apocryphal.

I think you make a valid and interesting point. Yes, as others have said there are conditions and illnesses which affect either gender and can affect professional performance. However, pregnancy (and to a certain extent, early motherhood) is entirely female and I can see exactly why your previously held views are being challenged by your current situation.

I wish you well with the remainder of your pregnancy and I hope you have two happy, healthy babies.

I think the key thing, as you've identified, is not to extrapolate from your experience to other pregnancies. Some women sail merrily through, all radiant and sexually voracious. Which I didn't, personally. On the other hand, some totally lose the plot and can't string a sentence together, whereas I was writing about complex policy stuff at 37 weeks first time round and passed my driving test at 37 weeks second time round.

Good point Elephants. I once had a board meeting cancelled because the CEO was recovering from a vasectomy and needed longer than expected. No comments there - and that's another single sex "item" where "being ill" time varies massively.

Evie, sorry you're feeling so run down. You said:

"I asked a question regarding a hypothetical surgeon who had been up all night (...) some (...) got caught up in the unrelated issue of me and my job and why I went to work this morning."

Those two issues are not unrelated at all, you clearly linked them in your OP.

Hope you feel better soon

Lots of women work through their pregnancy without problems at all.

Lots of men are pretty crap at their jobs at the best of times.

It used to be the norm that young doctors worked with inadequate sleep, that was the case for decades, until the EU maximum working hours directive (or whatever it's called) not that long ago.

Surgeons no doubt operate the day after they have been told they have cancer, or the day after their family member has been told they have cancer, or the day after their flight from Australia got in, or ..............