to ask if you would be happy to be operated on by a pregnant surgeon...

[Evie2014]

… who had been up all night with various pregnancy-related issues?

I'm 23 weeks pregnant with twins, and I've been up most of the night with preggo rhinitis, a grumbly tummy and the usual pregnancy insomnia. I'm heading into at least a 12 hour day at work, which will involve supervising people, directing teams and making relatively important decisions. I have quite a responsible job. Calling in sick isn't an option.

I average one day a week at the moment where I go in to work having managed an hour's sleep (despite going to bed early). I can honestly say that never in my professional life have I performed as badly as I do on those days. I've been making stupid rookie mistakes as a result of the awful state that comes from being pregnant, poorly and sleep deprived.

In the past, I've gone to work with ludicrous hangovers where I was probably still drunk from the night before . I definitely still performed better and made fewer mistakes on those ridiculously hungover days than I do during the present sleep-deprived pregnant days. (Pregnancy. The free hangover that never ends.)

I've learned from previous days like this. I'm going to warn two of my colleagues to keep an eye on my work today, in case I make a mistake. I have a lovely supportive team so that's not going to be a problem. However, there's no getting away from the fact that today is going to suck. I had a little cry in the bathroom as I pulled my exhausted body out of the shower just now, and then snuffled and said to myself, "Well, Evie, at least you're not a neurosurgeon. You can't kill anyone today."

But what if I WERE a neurosurgeon? Would you be happy for me to operate on you?

george Glad you are coping, please, just don't get too cocky. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

No I would not want to be operated on by a sleep derived surgeon. In fact at a recent hospital appointment I overheard a convo between two male surgeons, one (who looked knackered) explaining that he was unfit to operate as planned as had been up all night in a theatre emergency. He was going home for a few hours. Good call I thought.

And OP, of course calling in sick is an option, it's silly to say it's not. You are a human being and if you're sick, you're sick, end of.

no one is indispensable at work.

the sooner you realise that the better really.

if god forbid you died your job would be filled.

If she's not a surgeon, what's the relevance of the thread title? Was it just a slightly goady way of grabbing our attention?

Explain yourself!

OP, whatever your job is, I bet they'd miss you less than you think. Especially if you're as muddled as that OP makes you seem.

Still at work so can't really stay long- but haven't "left the thread" as someone wondered!

Briefly: I wasn't asking whether or not I should go to work. That's a moot point. I HAVE to be at work (will explain later if people really need to know but it's not really the issue).

I was just saying (in my sleep deprived way- apologies to everyone who got indignant and offended) that, okay, I go to work, I feel crap, how terrible for me, boo hoo (and today SUCKS, and thank you very much to the kind people who offered sympathy) but I can get people to look out for my mistakes and it isn't going to kill anyone.

But it did strike me that I wouldn't want to be a surgeon today, in the state I was this morning. And THAT led me to the wider hypothetical question- would I want to be operated on by a pregnant surgeon who had (possibly- and how would I know?) been up all night? The answer would clearly be no. For me that raises all sorts of uncomfortable philosophical questions that I'm having to face for the first time.

I wasn't trying to be goady. I think "surgeon" is the best example to use for this discussion because it really involves having people's lives in your hands. Even pilots really don't have that level of absolute, immediate, direct responsibility. Apologies to the surgeon who got offended.

I never thought being a woman was a disadvantage in any job. My pregnancy is making me uncomfortably aware that as a woman I am less effective professionally as a result of my biology. Which might make me more inclined to judge another woman based on HER biology. Which might enable the patriarchy to win. Which would be terrible.

No answers as yet, but must now get back to work (bloody 12 hours later. This day will never end…)

It's the wrong question. It isn't about feelings and people being 'happy'. It is about whether, in your professional judgment as a surgeon, you are fit to operate today, for a short while, long while or at all. It is your duty to make the call, there's no hiving it off onto other people based on whether they would be happy.

So, are you fit to work today, or not?

X-post. Answer still stands though.

I used to be the person that was far too important/busy/needed to be off ill. I ended up having to take 9 weeks with a serious medical condition that took hold because I hadn't taken a few days off, I was very ill needlessly.

If you are ill then take some time off, the world won't fall apart and your colleagues are carrying you anyway by the sound of it.

AGAIN, I AM NOT A SURGEON.
Sorry for shouting but, to make it absolutely CLEAR.

What do you do? If you are in a job where being sleep deprived puts people at risk directly or indirectly then you shouldn't be working. If you are in a job where a mistake wouldn't affect anything then it's not a big deal.

Op, your biology doesn't put you at a disadvantage. everyone male/ female whatever has off days. Some women properly sail through pregnancy without a backwards glance the way some people never get ill.

Some men get bloody colds and go to work for days because they are dying. You wouldn't want anyone who hadn't slept doing surgery obviously but sleep deprivation could be a sympton of a million and ones ailments.

I just never understand what people expect to gain from this sort of ridiculous I-must-be-present-at-work-at-all-costs attitude. OP, if you are, in your own words, turning in the worst performance of your life right now and continually making "stupid rookie mistakes", why on earth wouldn't your workmates actually be better off without you there?

Stay at home and get well ffs. Look after yourself and your precious babies.

Yes, we cannot deny biology however much we may want to.
Take some rest OP, the world will continue turning, your baby and your state of mind come first.

OP, have you seen the risk assessment your work holds which covers women of child-bearing age, pregnant women and new/breast-feeding mothers? Have you spoken to your manager about the impact of pregnancy related symptoms on your work?

I would have no problems being operated on by a pregnant surgeon. I would however expect them - and the hospital - to have a clear idea of if/how their pregnancy was affecting their ability to operate and to have moved them to other duties if that wasn't safe. Anything else would be highly irresponsible of the doctor and their employer - both in terms of their responsibility for the health & safety of a pregnant employee and their clinical responsibility to the patient.

I have operated whilst pregnant. I have requested to not operate whilst unfit to do so due to pregnancy related issues. It was a judgement call. My pregnancy itself didn't prevent me from operating. I merely had to decide whether or not I was endangering patients by electing to declare myself fit for work.

Equally, you have to decide (if the issue arises again) if you are capable of performing your job adequately. Although we still don't know what it is you do, I can only imagine that taking a day off would have far less serious repercussions than making a spectacular (and avoidable) cock-up.

If you have a job where being on top form is really, genuinely important - like being a neurosurgeon, or driving a big vehicle or something - then of course you shouldn't go in if you aren't fit to.

If you have a job where there's no real consequence if you're a little bit rubbish - say you work in a shoe shop, or in marketing - then fine to go in and coast a bit.

I hope you see that those of us who do operate make judgement calls and actively step away when we are not fit. We often make plans to ensure we are fit as in my example.

Seeing as I am a surgeon and operated whilst pregnant, I thought I'd weigh in.

I would never operate hungover, extremely exhausted or if I had a horrendous cold. No one is indispensable, everyone can - and should - call in sick if they are unable to perform their job safely and effectively.

I did have to adjust what I did, I couldn't work in the burns theatre as it's heated to ridiculous temps and it was all too much. But other ops were fine and it didn't really bother me, except for the mechanics of getting my large bump under/over the operating table.

Okay, well, I’m now home from work after 13 hours (today did suck) and sitting with my feet up so can reply properly to all of you interesting people (rolls up sleeves).

Let’s just say it once more: I’m not a surgeon!

Next, again, I wasn’t asking anyone whether I should go to work or not. Neither was I really looking for sympathy (though that was lovely, thank you) or people telling me I was putting my babies at risk (don’t you think I have enough to deal with today?). My job doesn’t involve extreme physical exertion. I’ve changed things so that I don’t have to do too much, physically, and I can sit down a lot of the time. The twins are absolutely fine.

However, I’m going to address the peripheral issue of my going to work (or not) this morning because, to be honest, the hectoring, it’s-perfectly-obvious-you-should-call-in-sick brigade and their associated value judgements have annoyed me a bit. Not everything is as simple or as obvious as it seems. I don’t consider myself indispensible, I’m not arrogant, I’m not putting my babies at risk deliberately, I’m not irresponsible.

I’m FREELANCE.

I don’t live in the UK. There isn’t any maternity protection where I live. If I don’t work I don’t get paid. And as a self-employed mum-to-be I really need to balance feeling crap versus having money for things like prams and cots and hospital bills (our country of residence doesn’t have a social security system). Not to mention having to save for when I take three months off work when the babies are born in a country with no maternity benefit. (Before anyone starts, DH is wonderful and works 7 days a week. We’re sharing the workload. We didn’t expect to be having twins so we need to knuckle down and work a bit harder – me while I am still in any way mobile- to figure things out financially. THAT'S responsible behaviour.)

If I had "called in sick" this morning many people who had been booked (and paid) in advance to take part in a project today would have been cancelled too. That would have had a knock on effect on another related deliverable in four days time.

As an aside, there isn't anyone TO call were I to "call in sick", since I was completely in charge of the project today. I'd have had to call the project OFF.

This part of the project happens every week. As someone reasonably pointed out upthread, I can’t call in sick every single week, every time I have a bad night, putting projects in jeopardy all the time.

And CRUCIALLY, as a freelancer with a pivotal role in an ongoing series of projects, I get precisely ONE chance to cancel a bunch of people with no notice and fuck up a carefully-planned and expensive work day before my job goes to someone else.

If I had known in advance that I was going to have a bad night I could have found someone yesterday to take over for me. However at the time I posted it was 6.20 a.m. in my timezone and I was due to start work at 7 a.m. It would have been impossible to find someone to fill in for me at that time of the morning and at such short notice.

So all you judgey pants people who thought it was so bleeding obvious that I should have called in sick: I DON’T LIVE IN YOUR (COMFORTABLE) WORLD. Not everyone does. I’m doing the best for my family and our financial situation and it isn’t easy, and YES I HAD TO GO TO WORK TODAY. Call off the dogs.

The next post will address the original question.

So what was the point of the thread?

You didn't want advice.
You didn't ant sympathy.
You are NOT a surgeon, despite your thread title being all about surgeons.

You asked me if I wanted a hungover or dizzy from exhaustion pregnant woman operating on me. WHat the fuck does that have to do with your job?

WHat are you asking?

Are you saying they should have to do their jobs anyway?

If you have any operation there is a high chance your surgeon is a sleep deprived...

Our consultants work a 12 hour day shift and then of the following 12 hours on call. So assuming they are up from 6am on Monday morning, had a busy day, a few emergencies kick off etc, by 3am they could have been up for 21 hours, if something happens at that point they are the most senior person around, they are the ones who will be operating on you. Pregnant or not. Many of them do manage to grab the odd hour or so's sleep depending on what kind of night we're having, however then they get woken from a sleep, paged straight to theatre and are expected to start saving lives immediately. With sleep creases still in their face.

Actually I feel that is a horribly hard position to be in op, you can have my full sympathy. I thought it was an interesting question too - hope you get some sleep tonight!

Wow, some posters clearly got out of the wrong side of bed this morning... She wasn't asking for anything, she just thought it was an interesting question. And she made it, IMO, blatantly obvious that she was not a surgeon and that it was a hypothetical question.

^""Well, Evie, at least you're not a neurosurgeon. You can't kill anyone today."

But what if I WERE a neurosurgeon? Would you be happy for me to operate on you?"^

Switch off MN and go and do something which won't stress you out OP.

I think I get what you mean. You thought you could do anything and be self sufficient (as a freelancer has to be) and your gender was immaterial. Now you're pregnant and various pregnancy things are making you exhausted, ill, under the weather and generally beneath your usual high standard of work. And it's making you wonder (possibly for the first time) whether women really are just as valuable as men at work, because they can be subject to these pregnancy related things and men can't. Have I got that right?

It's a red herring. Yes men can't get pregnant but they certainly can have conditions that affect them just as much as pregnancy is affecting you. Chronic fatigue syndrome for example. Arthritis. Flu. Back problems. Migraines. Anyone of any gender can have things happen to their body that makes them underperform at work, or have to take time off work.

It sounds to me like you're feeling vulnerable. It must be scary being a freelancer having to completely pay for your own medical care and the upcoming costs of TWO babies. But that doesn't mean that you and other women aren't capable at your jobs, and everything averages out in the end. Are you by any chance in quite a sexist environment (country or career)?