MP's to debate school holiday rules/fines on 24th February

[mummymeister]

Please can I ask anyone who feels as strongly as I do to write to their MP and ask for the changes in the rules regarding school holidays to be reversed. there is a back bench debate at 4.30pm on the 24th February and it is really important to bring this issue to the fore. There have been so many stories on MN of people wanting a day for funeral, to attend a family event, to visit family abroad that I know if all of us affected or who feel strongly write in at least we will have tried.

titsalina in your situation I would be canvassing MP and approaching papers. Go to court go all the way

Titsalina - I am really sorry that you find yourself in this position. with everything else you are coping with fining you just shows a complete lack of humanity and a world gone bonkers. write to Mr Gove and ask him whether he thinks your circumstances are exceptional or not. as for the right of appeal. is there any other fine where you have no right of appeal? anyone know.

Thank you, I'll be going regardless I just expect hassle for it, they've already handed out some spiffy looking traffic light cards so we can easily see our children's attendance, you know incase we didn't understand a figure by itself.

I'm not aware of any other fines that you can't appeal, we have successfully appealed a tax credits overpayment, I know people that have appealed speeding fines for goodness sake! If they're going to fine us I'd at least like the chance to go to court and have my say, even if I lost.

There are so many individual circumstances in all schools, it needs to go back to the head having the final say, with no pressure to meet target etc.

Titsalina that actually makes me upset to read things like that, as if you haven't got enough to worry about.

What upsets me about it is that you are now worried and anxious about the school's reaction to something which should be an incredibly positive and worthwhile experience. Even if they say 'yes' (which they should), there is this constant air of getting into trouble, lack of parity, lack of appeal (yes, you can go to court but the fines will have leaped up massively and you could still be technically guilty even if you are morally right).

So it existed but was used sparingly rather than as a way to try to change mass behaviour until this century

I haven't found any statistics on how sparingly fines and other sanctions were used historically. However it is definitely the case that the Blair government toughened up the sanctions somewhat and encouraged more stringent enforcement. They were concerned about the number of children leaving school with no qualifications and swelling the ranks of the unemployed or turning to crime. Prior to that absenteeism had hovered around 10% for most of the 20th Century. It has now fallen to just over 5%.

one size fits all is cheap

But that isn't what we've got. Head teachers can authorise absence in exceptional circumstances. They can therefore decide what size fits this case.

repeal the Gove rule

All that Gove has done is remove the reference in the regulations to 10 days holiday in special circumstances. It is very likely Labour would have done the same had they won the last election. Too many families regarded this as the unconditional right to take 10 days holiday in term time. That was never the intention.

prh47bridge - please have a read of some of the many, many threads about this on MN. the problem, the real problem, is the use of this word "exceptional circumstances" what one h/t thinks of as exceptional i.e. fixed work holidays, visiting an elderly relative abroad, going to a funeral etc is not defined as such by another. if your h/t says "no, this is not exceptional" they don't have to explain their decision and there is no right of appeal. that's it. suck it up. the h/t has decided. and I couldn't give a stuff what Ed Millibland and his cronies would have done. this is not a tory bashing thread. it is a thread about a politician, namely Gove, making a stupid decision to change the law. this has been done to make stats on attendance look better without actually tackling the real problem. the girl in my DD's class who has never in 7 years attended a full week of school is still doing it. the real issues of education of those that aren't in school are just not being addressed. too many families did not regard this as a right to a holiday. too many families just have lives that don't fit into one of Gove's neat little boxes. there are families with members that die during term time. there are families where the parent cannot take holiday due to their job. so, by what you are saying in August this year we will see a huge leap in GCSE and A level results then?

tiggytape sorry but this is not what is happening out there on the ground. funerals cannot be rearranged yet kids are being refused permission to go. I never assumed I could have the time off. the school know what my work is. they know I am self employed. they know I cannot go on holiday at any other time. I always wrote and ask first before booking dates. I never just told them. the problem is the tying in of absence stats into school performance. gove wants to be able to triumph how he has cracked the nut that was poor attendance. yes, days lost will be down but those same complex problem families still wont be in school. the whole thing is just emperors new clothes.

please have a read of some of the many, many threads about this on MN

I have contributed to many of those threads.

if your h/t says "no, this is not exceptional" they don't have to explain their decision and there is no right of appeal

That is how it always was. Under the old regulations schools were only supposed to authorise absence in exceptional circumstances. The only change is that the old regulations allowed up to 10 days for holidays in special circumstances (which legally is the same as exceptional circumstances). It was again up to the h/t to decide whether or not your circumstances were special. There has never been any automatic right to time off in term time.

If you are unhappy with any decision made by the head you can, of course, refer it to the governors.

this is not a tory bashing thread

I didn't say it was but there seems to be an awful lot of Gove-bashing for something that would have happened whichever party was in power and whoever was Education Secretary.

funerals cannot be rearranged yet kids are being refused permission to go

Most schools will give permission for funerals of immediate family members. Funerals of more distant relatives are another matter. And, as has been pointed out previously, you won't be fined for a single day's absence if attendance is otherwise good.

sorry prh47bridge you might not be fined for a single days absence if attendance is otherwise good but our LEA and head teacher will fine for a single days absence. you cannot generalise just because this is not what happens where you live. it is happening in other places unless of course all those posters who say this on mumsnet are in fact lying which I doubt very much. and do you know for a fact that the other parties would have bought this in had they been in power? how? can you link to the bit in their manifesto where it says this?

but our LEA and head teacher will fine for a single days absence

No they will not. They may threaten it but they absolutely will not do it. There have been plenty of posters who say they have been threatened with it but I have not seen a single one who says they were actually fined for a single days absence.

If you care to tell us which LA covers your area I will tell you what their policy is on fines for absence. Your head teacher must comply with your LA's policy on penalty notices by law. I have read the policy of the vast majority of LAs and have yet to find one that would allow fines for a single day off when attendance is otherwise good.

And yes I do know for a fact that the other parties would have brought this in. The change had all party support following the Taylor review.

you cannot generalise just because this is not what happens where you live

I am not generalising from what happens where I live. I am generalising based on a knowledge of what actually happens across the country, the DfE's guidance on the subject and the policies adopted by most LAs.

Wow prh47bridge. did you mean to be so rude? I run my own business, responsible for a number of other peoples employment and am intelligent and capable enough to have already read both my LEA's guidance and that given by my individual childrens schools. just because something has all party support does not mean that it would have been bought in does it. and no. I have no more intention of telling you where I live than you do of telling me which political party you work for/ am posting on behalf of.

oh that's all right then tiggy, if he is an expert he can be as rude as he likes then. no answer as to which political party he is working for then.

prh47bridge is a longstanding expert poster on education (law, admissions) and I have never seen support for one party or another - indeed the posts are usually scrupulously fair and well referenced.

I don't think he was rude; all he did was disagree with you based on knowledge of actual practice based on available evidence.

If you know of an LEA which is fining for single day absences, then it would help all of MN if you would say which it is (or if you do not want to disclose our location, then by PM to him). If he runs true to form, you will then see future comment incorporating the new evidence.

I do not work for any political party nor have I ever done so. I am not posting on behalf of any political party either.

I do not see anything I have said that is rude. I have disagreed with you but I have not attacked you personally in any way. But I am sorry for any offence I have caused.

Apologies for not being clear enough when talking about the LA's policy. You need to find your LA's Code of Practice, not just statements on their website. Most like to keep the Code of Practice well hidden and plaster their website with threatening warnings. Indeed, some LAs don't publish their Code of Practice on their website at all. It tells you the exact circumstances under which a fine can be levied. A typical Code of Practice limits the number of times you can be fined (2 per pupil per parent in a school year is fairly normal), sets the level of absence needed to trigger a fine (20 sessions, i.e. 10 days, in a year or 12 sessions in a single term is fairly normal) and sets other requirements. For example, most require a formal warning giving the parents 3 weeks to improve the situation before a fine is issued.

Prh could you give some info re kids at schools still booking holidays in term time(started thread below as confused).

Just booked a holiday in the hols on the understanding we'd get fined if it was during term time however other kids at our school are going away during term time(1 child on his second).Apparently with the school office's blessing.

Starting to wonder whether I should cancel and rebook it in term time as it will save £££££££.

Really confused.

moldingsunbeams - Of course you can.

Wigan don't appear to have their Code of Practice on their website at all but digging around their policy seems to be that a fine will only be issued if the child has 10 sessions (5 days) absence in a single term.

Retropear - The regulations do not ban schools from authorising holidays in term time. They simply say they should only be granted in exceptional circumstances. If your school is authorising term time holidays it may get into trouble with Ofsted but you would not be breaking any laws if you took a holiday in term time with their approval. You certainly can't be fined for an authorised holiday. I would start by asking them if a holiday would be approved.

These were ski-ing (said child goes every year) and another (same child)has been booked for a couple of weeks time.Another family has booked just a general 3 weeks holiday.I don't have a problem with it but would like some consistency and fairness.

We had a very vague newsletter saying holidays would have to be put down as unauthorised.