MP's to debate school holiday rules/fines on 24th February

[mummymeister]

Please can I ask anyone who feels as strongly as I do to write to their MP and ask for the changes in the rules regarding school holidays to be reversed. there is a back bench debate at 4.30pm on the 24th February and it is really important to bring this issue to the fore. There have been so many stories on MN of people wanting a day for funeral, to attend a family event, to visit family abroad that I know if all of us affected or who feel strongly write in at least we will have tried.

[IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadM]

ph

Is that absence due to holidays or due to feckless parenting and children who are playing truant.

[mummymeister]

So prh47 if a child has no days off sick in a year but takes 5 days off as holiday they meet the 95% attendance criteria and therefore their education doesn't actually suffer substantially. I completely accept that when you are talking about children who have less than 90% attendance there are issues long term with outcomes, grades etc. No one disputes that if you are at school less or have less education then the outcomes are affected. however, the figures actually support parents who say "my child has 100% attendance but I want to take 3 days off at the end of the summer term to leave early for my holiday" I am not here making any reference to children with long term health issues who cant help but miss time at school.

[mummymeister]

sorry tiggytape but just cannot agree with what you say about option 3. it wont all be over in a year like seatbelts or smoking with the new crop of 4 year olds because many people have more than one child. also, not wearing a seatbelt or smoking can lead to death, missing a day for a funeral or 3 days at the end of term for a holiday wont. I would want to repeal the law, go back to what we had but with more power to the heads and the governors. personally changing term times would be another option but then I have my kids in school all in one LEA and I am not a teacher.

[EmmelineGoulden]

Are there any statistics on the number of GCSEs children who go abroad for at least ten days a year get compared to those who don't?

Or on the mental health outcomes, strength of family bonds, general happiness etc. of children who get a holiday with their parents every year compared to those who don't?

[IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadM]

EmmelineGoulden

life in the uk has become almost unbearably grim and hard...i just cannot understand why no value is being placed on family time.

I think all our Mps should show how in touch they are with people who cannot afford a break in the uk or abroad, and do away with their own family breaks.

[EmmelineGoulden]

That's not entirely true Tiggy. The heads may still be named as being the ones who make the decision over whether soemthing is authorized. But power is wielded in many ways and the power of ofstead to downgrade a school on the basis of the head's use of that discretion (putting the head's job in jeopardy) is one of the most significant factors in the way this plays out in practice.

[EmmelineGoulden]

So what do you attribute the change in practice to Tiggy?

[prh47bridge]

Is that absence due to holidays or due to feckless parenting and children who are playing truant

The reason for absence does not appear to have any significant effect on outcomes.

So prh47 if a child has no days off sick in a year but takes 5 days off as holiday they meet the 95% attendance criteria and therefore their education doesn't actually suffer substantially

Correct. There probably is an effect but we are down at levels where it is getting too small to measure.

Most LAs will not fine the parents of such a child for unauthorised absence - six days in a term or ten days in a year is the minimum level for action in most LAs. There are some LAs where taking all five days as a single block may trigger some action but that is normally a letter telling the parents to improve attendance and giving them a few weeks to do so rather than a penalty notice. So the most likely scenario for the parents of such a child being fined is that they take an unauthorised week off during term time and there are further absences shortly after they return. If the week's holiday is the genuinely the only absence that year they are unlikely to be fined.

EmmelineGoulden - Ofsted start by looking at the headline figure for absence. They will only start looking at how the head is using their discretion if that figure suggests a problem. And they will take account of long term sickness, etc. And attendance is only one of the factors going into a school's grading. A school isn't going to be downgraded if attendance is a bit low but all other measures are fine.

[prh47bridge]

So what do you attribute the change in practice

Many heads, particularly in primary schools, felt that the previous regulations which allowed up to 10 days for holidays in "special circumstances" did not give them enough backing in clamping down on absence, particularly persistent absence. This resulted in them authorising holidays when they would have preferred to say no in order to keep good relations with parents. They now feel they have enough backing to enable them to say no, especially since they are able to blame the government and/or the LA for the change.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Employers aren't overly understanding about time off which was probably always the case but people are more wary of being too demanding at work or going against their company's wishes at the moment

And that's another reason why folks who take their children out to get a cheaper holiday are putting them at such a disadvantage. When they've been taught that inconvenient rules can be ignored it comes as a shock to find that real life in the workplace isn't like that

[JohnnyBarthes]

They're also saying that their employer's demands, lack of will and/or poor planning trump their children's right to their full entitlement of days in school.

Yay to go, work/life balance!

[EmmelineGoulden]

phr - thank you for responding, your knowledge makes this discussion much richer.

tiggy - what's this big increase in demand for time off school that you're talking about? I was under the impression from figures quoted above that absences had been going down, not up.

[mummymeister]

tiggytape - whilst I agree with what you say to a certain extent unfortunately some h/t either aren't using common sense or are frightened of the ramifications of giving time off. this is shown with the numbers on MN complaining about days for family events - days which in the past they have been given or know have been given but now are not. I think all of this tackling time off is a bit of a red herring and stops the govt having to get to grips with some of the other problems in schools. the ones I read about on here all the time in relation to disruptive non engaging pupils and their families. Puzzled - I certainly haven't taught my kids that rules can be ignored far from it. we always requested time off in the past in negotiation with the school, we never just took it. my children also know that when we are away it is there responsibility to sort out the copying of notes and that they must read them whilst we are away so as not to fall behind. there may be some entitled parents out there who think two weeks is a right but don't tar us all with the same brush.

[Beechview]

The argument that even short absences affect childrens education is rubbish. A 2 week holiday outside GCSE years is not going to affect their GCSE grade.

My immigrant parents took us out of school for 8 weeks at a time (my dad's work allowed holiday accumulation) every 2 years until I got to GCSE courses. The teachers were not asked to help us catch up, they had no extra work and the work I did based on my time in another country (stories and poems) were some of the best work I did. I always got A's for that.

We got into local grammar schools, good exam results, university and good professional careers.

I have never taken my kids out during term time but don't see why I can't if I wanted to! I do lots to back up my children's education and I don't think their education would suffer at all.

Its all down to parenting and the quality of schooling.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

There may be some entitled parents out there who think two weeks is a right but don't tar us all with the same brush

Nobody's suggesting nthat ALL parents are the same, but neither can we ignore the many people whose answer is "just say they're sick" or worse

As Tiggy said, the problem with making exceptions is that countless others then cry "me too, me too - it isn't faaaiiirrr!!!" Some exceptions are of course necessary, but equally some parents need to accept that we can't always have precisely what we want - and teach their children the same

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Absolutely Paintyfingers - and people always seem to assume that things are causative, barely considering that they could just be co-existing phenomena.
My DNiece had quite poor attendance at secondary school (for no particularly good reason actually) but because home life was otherwise good and wider family was encouraging and supportive etc. (also because she is very bright) she still went to Uni and is now doing well with a place next year to do her PGCE.
This is just about my number one bug-bear, especially when scientific research meets media of any kind (I just like that face!)

[lljkk]

Or you can have a child with a history of bullying & ambivalent feelings about the whole point of education (like DS1). Supportive parents & family background can only get the kid so far.

I emailed HoY about DS, could school give us any help with his truancy impulses or do we just continue with our regime of cajoling-punishing-rewarding & scolding.

No reply from HoY of course. :(

Do you know I'm fed up with stats & correlations; there are other things in life besides school. We live in such a hypocritical age which only gives lip service to the "work-life balance". Arrrgggghhhhh.

[lljkk]

(not sure who the you is in your last post, tt)