To ask vegans what's wrong with free range eggs?

[AndyWarholsBanana]

This isn't a TAAT but the raw vegan thread did make me think about the morals of the dairy industry and I can kind of see where vegans are coming from re cows' milk. And obviously battery farming is vile but I can't see how eating eggs from properly free range chickens is cruel. Am I missing something?

As I am sure has been said above:

1. The egg industry, whether free range, luxury conditions or whatever, still requires the mass killing of all the male chicks.

1. Hens are only kept for as long as they are economically viable - so until their peak egg production is over, which is only a couple of years (and hens could live much, much longer than that), and they are then killed.

So if you are vegan because you don't want to fund an industry that kills animals then that is why you don't eat eggs.

Considerations when buying your chicken.Standard or Free Range

Fairylea, does that mean a true vegan is also anti human abortion & anti contraceptive pill as this prevents life from taking its natural path?

Genuinely curious...

catneuterer, including people who keep them themselves? Do they also kill the females after laying is over?

stealth we never killed ours once their laying days were over, they just scratched about in the garden until they finally went to see the big chicken in the sky

Glad to hear it :o

Will PM my address I will need 6 and 12 on alternating weeks please, with extra sometimes if I'm baking :o

they just scratched about in the garden until they finally went to see the big chicken in the sky

I am learning more than I really want to know about the food industry as DS1 has recently changed from being the biggest carnivore on the planet to eating MUCH more vegetables/juicing etc and sustainably sourced meat/fish etc. He won't eat a lot of what I think of as top range and free range so it causing slight friction. Anyway - just curious and this is probably a very naive question but why do they kill male chicks? Why don't they grown them (free range of course so we can eat them?

Free range isn't always as lovely as it sounds by the way as my link upthread shows.

It's probably down to costs mother. Isn't everything these days.
The costs of rearing them this way is passed on to the customer who isn't always prepared to pay or in a position to pay that bit extra.

Re your post of 7:56, formerbabe, I am simply pointing out that your "checkmate" is no such thing.

All eggs from domesticated chickens come from a breeding process, which causes the males to be culled.

I suppose you could use wild ducks eggs in your argument. But, there aren't that many people who would be in a position collect wild ducks eggs, vegan or not.

I am not a vegan, BTW, I'm a pedant who hates shoddy logic.

There are 2 different 'types' of chicken, some species are good for meat, others are good for eggs, the ones used for eggs aren't very good at bulking up and being meaty, so their male offspring are culled as they will never be very good for the meat market. they do keep some back as fertilised eggs are needed for the next batch of egg layers.

My hens don't eat their own eggs.
They were rescued from a very uncertain future.
They roam very freely (big garden, and woods beyond garden) and their wings are not clipped.
They are kept with a cockerel as I believe it makes them happy hens.
I keep them clean and as safe from the fox as possible and give them good food and clean water.
I am very interested in veganism, but I have settled with the concept of cruelty free eating ( as explained to me on the vegan thread) since I can see no harm comes to my chooks if we eat their eggs.

Henrietta some vegans, yes do think that way. Some think the opposite (sort of) in that self survival is understandable in any species even our own so as per my previous post taking a tablet to kill a tapeworm is no different to taking a tablet for an abortion - ie both sentient beings but equal and so both no worse or better than the other (ie many think abortion is fine and no different than any other "pest" in the human body).

I don't mean to offend anyone by that .... its just a massive huge 37 page argument I had an a vegan forum (I was saying it wasn't the same, im not anti abortion I'm pro choice) and they were all saying it was. Very convoluted and complicated.

Hence I have looked into the Wells of veganism in its extreme and theological form and decided it wasn't for me despite admiring the concept.

motheroftwoboys I would imagine that the reason they kill all the male chicks rather than let them grow and then kill them is that it's less profitable than to only rear females. Afterall if you rear females then they are also producing eggs until they are killed, as opposed to cocks who won't, so given less profit for the same input. I would imagine also that it would be difficult to keep a lot of cock birds together as they would probably kill each other.

stealth I think that most people who keep hens themselves probably buy the female chicks as chicks rather than eggs, so the killing has already been done for them IYSWIM.

Thanks for that: it's very very interesting. I was asking as my dear friend is contemplating moving towards a vegan lifestyle from her current vegetarianism is most definitely a pro-choice liberal feminist, looking to source good food ethically.

But the logic of the sanctity of the lives of all animals just jumped off the page when you wrote what you did.

It never occurred to me that the philosophy of veganism could be so layered and complex.

It is true though what others say about cockerels being culled.

The reason is that usually cockerels will fight to the death if necessary, or inflict terrible injuries on each other with their spurs.

Similarly, if the ratio of cockerels to hens is too high, the hens get injured because of the cockerels sexual demands.

This is where I need someone to explain in which way chooks should live so they are safe and happy. And I mean that in an ibterested way, rather than a confrontational way, as I don't know the alternatives.

As a 'would-be' vegan myself (that is I fully agree with the principles and keep trying to stick to it but find it more difficult than just being vegetarian) then I personally would have no problem whatsoever with eating the eggs of rescue hens. That is ex battery hens who have been bought off the farmer for about 50p each to save them heading off to the abbatoir and to give them at least some happy years of life. There are organisations that do this (ie buy them and find happy homes for them to go to).

I admit that in this scenario I would only be getting to eat my eggs because of the existence of the very cruel battery egg industry, but seeing as it does still exist and there isn't much I can do about it, then I feel that this is a pragmatic approach to help at least a few hens and I would be more than happy to eat their eggs.

If you want the answers to questions like this, there are numerous websites explaining why there is no such thing as "Happy Hens" aka free range. There is lots if stuff even in FB.

On a side note once you stop eating animal products, you spend the day on the toilet if you take in a small amount.

I know this because in the early days if being Vegan, I dropped to Vegetarian to eat out.

Even Weathersoons now has Vegan Options.

Many people are shocked when they find out the facts about the meat and dairy industry, I know I was. Some are not phased by it. It prompted me to become Vegetarian. Lord knows what I was thinking all the years prior to this, I just didn't think about or question the source of my food. Now that I know, I really cannot support these industries.

I'd like to see more older children educated about farming methods etc so they can make an informed choice on food at an earlier age.

"It never occurred to me that the philosophy of veganism could be so layered and complex."

That's what makes the "caught you out" " your not a real Vegan if ..." More annoying.

You wouldn't say that to a Muslim, for instance, the way some Vegans have to justify every meal they eat in work (again for example), wouldn't be the case for any other belief system.

Being Vegan can be tied into other beliefs, including Feminism, Anti Child Cruelity, Anti Human Exploitatuon, as well as Planetry and Aninal Welfare and Spiritual Beliefs.

I'm interested in learning more about vegetarianism (couldn't go the whole way to veganism) simply from the little I already know about the meat industry and I would like to keep our own chickens for the eggs.

My grandad worked 1 day in an abbatoir in the 40s or 50s before he had to quit and then never ate meat again. He wouldn't talk about that job either.

However I'm a truly rubbish cook and don't actually like a lot of the alternatives vegetarians eat, so I'm working on building up my palette before I cut out meat altogether.

Marianne if you're interested in vegetarianism try reading Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer.

I was a vegetarian from the age of 8 until 18, then stopped eating meat again last year. Many veggies don't eat vegetarian alternatives (Quorn, tofu etc) and just structure their meals completely differently.

There are thousands of recipes on the internet . Some are bizarre but there are many which suit the normal palette!

These websites are good for Vegetarian info and issues.

Vegetarian Society

Viva

thatbloodywoman you are applying human values to chickens. The ideal of safe and happy chickens, all males and females both surviving to adulthood and coexisting happily, wouldn't be achievable.

50% ish of chicks are always going to be male and their natural social structure requires only one male to a certain quantity of females. The vast majority of male chicks will be killed by the dominant adult male as soon as they reach maturity.

I really don't know which is worse, crushed in a macerator or ripped apart by daddy rooster.

thatbloodywoman the best way to keep happy hens is in a small flock in your back garden - depending on the breed, each hen will lay one egg a day so unless you plan to sell your eggs or give them away then don't have 8 hens if there are only 2 of you at home. Hens who have lived together since they hatched are also a good idea - introducing others to a flock can cause terrible fighting (sometimes even death) and they can also be terrible bullies to new ones. When our old girls are no longer laying they are kept separately to our new laying hens for these reasons.
They need somewhere warm and dry to sleep, with ideally a roosting pole and plenty of comfy straw bedding to keep them cosy Plus free access to outdoor space so they can demonstrate their natural behaviours of scratching/dust baths etc etc. They will naturally 'put themselves to bed' at dusk so you just close the door at night and open it first thing. They need plenty of fresh water and they will pretty much eat up all your kitchen left overs except fish (you really don't want fishy eggs). They need a quick mucking out of their 'bedroom' once a day and are very very easy to look after well. They will be the best eggs you've ever had.

I'm sad how little people seem to know about their food, where it comes from and how to grow/rear it. I grew up in a farming community so knew all this from an early age and although I'm in suburbia now I still grow my own veg etc. I'm passionate about children understanding exactly what is involved in the food industry and the food chain, not sheltering them from what happens to animals and they can then make their own informed choices. As I said further up thread, you a either for or against eating / consuming animals in principle or you are not. If you do, you should understand and choose wisely wherever possible. I try to although I'd never say I get it right every time.