… to think that no one wants to speak up for the younger generation?

[SnowBells]

I don't know what it is. Maybe political correctness gone mad.

Pensioners who are already wealthy get winter fuel allowance, etc. Each time this kind of stuff gets mentioned on things like Question Time or something, people shout and whistle, showing complete disregard for the subject, and no real debate can happen.

I am not talking about the pensioners who aren't well off. But a huge proportion of pensioners did profit from the higher house prices - something not likely to happen for the younger generation.

Our kids have to pay to go to uni. My generation will retire much, much later. We also have to pay for inflated house prices.

And yet, there will be people who say 'but we've paid our taxes'. Well, we pay taxes and our kids will, too, but we are likely to get A LOT less back. I just feel there's a huge generational wealth divide. And I wonder why no one wants to discuss this properly? Why do people want to stop a debate before it has even had a chance to happen?

Everyone will die. Your legacy is the next generation. So why not speak up for what essentially will be your only legacy?

Some people can be vile whatever their age.

I am 25, and my friends and I just feel betrayed and enormously let down.

We worked our arses off at school, only to hear that our exam results meant nothing because the exams were easy, and we were lazy compared to the previous generation.

We were pushed into university by our schools and the government, who made it seem like our only option. We were promised increased graduate earnings, guaranteed jobs and a secure future. What we actually got was tuition fees that payed for poor teaching due to enormous budget cuts, around £30000 of debt, and no jobs. And again we were told it was our fault because we are lazy workshy scroungers.

Throughout my whole adolescence there were endless news articles about the terrible young people, how we were violent and useless and couldn't be bothered to work hard. There was an ' us versus them' mentality. We grew up feeling like nobody was or would ever be on our side.

And in the last election, where most of us finally had the chance to vote, we came out in record numbers to try to change things. We voted for Clegg, with his promises of higher education funding and no further increase in tuition fees. And he just crapped all over us, lied and blamed us when we spoke out. It is no wonder we are apathetic. Huge numbers of us have lost all faith in politics, in the fact that our votes might make a difference. We feel abandoned. Our right to protest is being eroded, and most of us now cannot risk it.

We are busy struggling to make ends meet- benefit rates are still lower for under 25s, yet most of us cannot live at home. We are facing endless rent increases, with no prospect of help if the further benefit cuts for under 25s come into play. How can society's problems be our fault when we were still at school when they began? I'm not sure it's the fault of the previous generation, I think everyone just muddled along trying to do the best with what they have, but I feel we have certainly taken a lot of the blame for a situation that was not of our making.

MovingOn I think we've experienced very similar things, and I agree that it leaves you feeling incredibly let down.

I've been fortunate in that I've done well at school and university and have (finally) got a good job that pays well but I am painfully aware that I am the exception amongst my friends who are equally bright and hardworking but just haven't had the same luck as me.

Even though I've been lucky, I feel like I've been walking a tightrope my entire life - ensuring that I take the right steps to not fall off. Surely this can only get worse for those younger than me who are subject to even more exams throughout school, and an increasingly competitive job market.

I love looking at older people and hearing how, before they became this important person, they had this wild and varied youth, doing improbable careers and then stepping into their current roles in their 30s / 40s, but you can't do that any more. Now you have to do the right GCSEs, to get onto the right A-Levels, to get into the right university, for the right course whilst doing the right internships and so on. And why would employers choose someone who hasn't done this when there are so many people who do?

I don't think it's healthy for students (so relentless and exhausting) or the economy (it's how we've ended up with career politicians for one) but a lot of people who call our generation lazy and feckless are willfully ignorant that this is how the job market works today.

SnowBells Thu 20-Feb-14 09:00:55

So basically, younger generations have to:

• pay pension of older generation
• pay for university
• save up for their pension

just like my parents who:

• paid NI but one died before claiming anything. they only have private pensions
• did not get the opportunity to go to university because few people did
• and had to save up for their own pensions

YouAre

If every single pensioner saved for their pension... then why is it that most benefits get paid to them??? Everyone knows that pensions are what costs the state most.

Also, the list is longer, and others have pointed it out. But you seem to be hellbent on saying the older generation had it as hard.

They didn't.

Basically, UK living conditions are becoming more and more like China. And I can assure you, the baby boomer generation did not live like that. It's just that in China, it's actually going the opposite way - people are expecting standard of living to increase!

What did your parents do for a living, and could they still afford what they have now (house, etc.), if they had to start all over again? Would they still get the same jobs??

You and them should acknowledge that they were lucky.

"But you seem to be hellbent on saying the older generation had it as hard.

They didn't."

You seem hellbent on saying all the older generation had it easy.
They didn't.

Some did. Some didn't.

MovingOn, your post is spot on!
I'm 25 too. I gave up on trying to "make" anything of myself years ago, and just focus on staying afloat. Sometimes I can't even manage that.

As I was growing up I was promised a world where I'd be able to get a job as long as I worked hard and got good grades. I endured the bullying I got as a teen because I tried hard at school, because I knew it was worth it in the long run.

Then I found out I wasn't suited for university, and dropped out of education after college only to find that even with more education under my belt, nobody wanted to employ me. I've been applying for job after job for five years now and not been actually employed once, and it's only getting worse. If graduates my age can't find work, what chance do I, 25-year-old with zero actual jobs held or any useful skills, have? Most of the entry-level jobs in my area are held by 50+ women (generally) who've had to go back to work or by college students.

Feeling betrayed is a common theme I've noticed in people our age. Disillusionment and apathy are two more. What's the point in trying if you don't get anywhere?

that's true jules but right now its universally hard.

and it's not about blame I haven't blamed anyone. Comparison of different times isn't about blame.

I think it's disingenuous to say "this generation has it easier than that generation" either way around - I don't think it's possible to quantify easier and harder unless one entire generation had never been expected to work and paid for their entire lives and that's not the case.

What can be compared is the job opportunities available and the living it affords you.

In the 1950s there were a lot of low level entry jobs. These were probably very hard work and a lot of the time there was no chance of career progression, you got one job and you did it. But you could get these jobs without previous qualifications and most paid enough that you could reasonably expect to own a house within 10 years. It's also my understanding that anyone earning less than that had relatively easy access to social housing.

More academically able students were able to go to grammar schools and a proportion of those went to university. If you were deemed as capable to go to university, you were given generous bursaries to fund you there. Upon graduation, having a degree was prized and opened many doors in the job market. There was a sense of injustice for people who missed out on this opportunity and middle level jobs were rarer.

Now there are far fewer low level entry jobs, and these are competitive. Even "low considered" jobs such as working in McDonalds require C grade GCSEs in English & Maths. These jobs do not pay enough to live on in many cities (hence the Living Wage compared to NMW) and it is highly unlikely that anyone could save enough money on NMW to get a deposit for a house. Social housing lists are full and families can wait for years without being assigned a flat / house.

It takes less academic ability to go to university now but students who do go pay £9k a year fees and at least £4k a year for maintenance. Students are expected to go to university if they want anything above a "low level" job and many more jobs that were not considered graduate level now only accept graduate applications. Upon graduation, anything less than a 2:1 from a top university is not considered a useful degree and even those degrees only get you into grad scheme applications with around 80 eligible applicants per place. Many jobs expect you to work for free as an intern, leaving entire industries only available to those whose parents can support them. There's a sense of injustice that students have to take on c £40k worth of debt to get a degree that's been devalued.

I'm one of the lucky ones in this generation - I got a 2:1 from a top university and (eventually) got a good job. My worry is for everyone who isn't as lucky as me. What happens to people who were convinced to go to university that have worthless pieces of paper and £40k of debt? What happens to people without qualifications who are dismissed at 18 as "feckless and lazy" who will barely be able to afford to rent never mind buy?

We're already in a situation where people can't afford to have children during their fertile years - what kind of political chaos is going to result from a whole generation being disenfranchised and never able to afford families?

Callani you are right re it is impossible to quantify in terms of all factors.

However you then go on to talk about housing and affordability/ availability. This can easily be quantified and is one of the biggest factors here surely?

I can easily say that it was easier for me to get onto the property ladder than someone 10 years younger than me.

My mum was able when we bought to compare salaries/ interest rates and comment that the house we were able to buy was no where near what they were able to afford in '72.....

Most people acknowledge this surely?

I think the problem that many young people have is they have been sold unrealistic (consumer?) dreams of how hard you have to work v. what you actually get from life.

so the gap between reality and expectations has grown, whereas life is actually materially much easier.

how v is life materially easier if you can't access housing? Surely that is a basic need, not 'materialism'?

My nana raised 5 children in Liverpool

She had no access to running hot water until her youngest was 5

she had no washing machine
hoover
They can all remember when they 'got' electricity.

The poor of this country have never had such a good deal, it really is amazing how far we have come in supporting those in poverty in the last 50 years.

However, that has come with a price, now it doesnt seem to matter how hard you work, you will only be a tiny bit above that low bar (which is actually quite high now) and all around us we can see the roads and our services disintegrating which were new for the generation above us and were built by the generation before that.

As I said before, we need to harvest this technological potential that so many of our young have and get ourselves back on the world markets as leaders of innovation and technology.

how v is life materially easier if you can't access housing?

you mean large numbers of young people are living on the streets? what does cannot access housing mean?

I like Movingon's post, similar story here (I'm 29).

On average, those currently retired will, by the time they die, have taken much more money out of the system than they ever put in. On average the younger generation will PAY more into the system than they ever get out.

The problem is that the older generation saw paying taxes/NIC etc as some sort of "savings account" that they had the right to draw on later, but actually the money was all spent at the time. They are now supported by the current working young who will not eventually get the same payback due to changing demographics (ratio of young:old).

The Intergenerational Foundation has a lot of interesting research.

YANBU

"ratio of young to old." Rogue smiley

On average, those currently retired will, by the time they die, have taken much more money out of the system than they ever put in. On average the younger generation will PAY more into the system than they ever get out.

yes. and on average, young people will live longer and lead healthier lives.

tis swings and roundabouts

Brettgirl I agree that you can weigh up things like housing in terms of costs but essentially you can't weigh up how easy or hard it feels, I think that's the point I was trying to make.

I think if you're the unlucky one in any generation you're going to feel like you have a hard life - whether you just missed out on grammar school in the 1950s and are stuck as a labourer but have your own house, or have a degree and an smartphone now but have no ability to get your own place.

Oh and for people saying that having a smartphone means that you're materially lucky - it's about £150 for a smartphone and even in cheap-as-chips Yorkshire it's at least £9k for a 10% deposit on a cheap 2 bed terrace plus legal fees etc on top.

That means that you'd have to save up 4 days pay for a smartphone on NMW, but you'd need 10 months pay for a deposit. Not that you'd get a mortgage because 3.5 x NMW = £40k so even with two of you over 21 on NMW full time you wouldn't be able to afford 99% of properties.

I read somewhere that if you lose your job in your fifties you only have a one in ten chance of getting back into paid full time employment. Older people of working age - and the increase in retirement age will make this worse- are another group who are finding the job market tough. Yes they may already have a mortgage but when universal credit comes in they will have to support themselves by living off their savings until they they reach retirement age or drop into the means tested band for support. Not everyone can become a successful small business owner but this seems to be the only route for employment now. The over 50s cannot emigrate easily.

What an interesting thread.

Such a complex issue - I got a full grant and free education (I'm 46) but I didn't feel entitled to the high standard of living my teenage DD seems to think she should have - her student accommodation is luxurious compared to mine, and to DH and my first home. She has been known to go out for takeaway food at dinnertime, bought by herself, instead of having the dinner that's ready. Given that my cooking is edible I think that's very extravagant.

Some things have come down in price eg clothes, holidays and I think, alcohol.

On the other hand I really think there was less pressure on my generation to spend a fortune on 'personal grooming' and fashionable clothes.

x-posted as usual.

We worked our arses off at school, only to hear that our exam results meant nothing because the exams were easy, and we were lazy compared to the previous generation.

I got my first job on a graduate scheme (8 years ago now), I remember being terrified of failing because I'd spent my whole education hearing in the media and first hand from older people generally (including my parents) how exams these days were easy and young people were a lot thicker than they themselves were.

Of course a few weeks into the job it dawned on me that actually most of the older people working there were nothing special, and a lot of them were downright incompetent and not very bright at all. I've always noticed how emails I get full of bad grammar are invariably from older people, the same people who deride the skills and education of young people today. Most of these sort of people would never be able to get the same sort of job they're in now if they were starting out today - you have to be so much better to apply for the same jobs. The thing that saddens me most is how young people who are not very bright are basically fucked and can't get any sort of job at all (except maybe zero-hours or some shite commission only job). Yet the equivalent demographic from the previous generation had plenty of opportunities, and are often sitting pretty now in houses with £100k's, and final salary pensions. And they tell you the difference is they are successful because they "work hard". By the logic of these types you'd have to assume Bangladeshi kids working 16 hour days in sweatshops are poor because they are lazy.

Some say young people shouldn't turn their grievances into a young vs old debate, but when you've grown up being told from all angles that you're thick, your education is worthless, and heard a decade and more of gloating about how house prices are zooming out of your reach forever and how great this is, quite frankly I don't care any more. If my generation finally takes political power and decides to cancel all pensions for baby boomers I really don't see why I should feel bad about it, the downright vindictiveness and refusal to acknowledge anyones problems except their own from almost all of them (contrary opinions amongst that generation have been very sparse IME), leads me to hope that one day they find out what it's like when the government hates them and starts taking all their wealth and opportunities to bribe some other demographic.

not being able to access housing means flat sharing in sorry term leases into your 30s. It means living at home as an adult. It means families in b and bs living with parents. If you are 'lucky' you access an expensive rental property with a short term lease meaning you can't actually save anything. Surely no one would honestly argue we don't have a housing crisis?