To get wound up about MN and sleep advice

[LittleMilla]

I love MN and will often come on to get advice...can normally count on it for sensible pointers for everything except for sleep.

AIBU to wonder why noone on MN seems to want their children to sleep through the night? I no of noone in RL who co-sleeps - but everyone on MN seems to? And people seem to think it's entorely normal for a 8 month old baby to wake repeatedly through the night.

I just don't get it. So much valuable advice...yet everyone on here seems to go madly soft when it comes to sleep.

Am I the only one?

YABU. I think MN and RL are the same in this regard. In fact ppl I know in RL seem to have more night wakings. It is NOT normal for an 8mo to sleep through the night. Damn I'm 40 and I wake up for a drink or fancying a cuddle most nights

All that matters is you do what works for you, your baby and your family.

What I object to is mums being pressured into doing something they don't feel comfortable with (whether that's CC or co sleeping or anything else) because people say that their baby is not normal.

dietcoke - just because you raise that scenario ...

there's a friend of mine on here who had an 8mo just like that. She now has a 2 year old just like that. They have tried EVERYTHING. Including CC. There really are some babies who are extreme-athletes of sleep-problems who just won't respond to parental adjustments.

This child may go one to be an insomiac adult, or he may suddenly sleep really well in a year or two. I was a terrible sleeper until I was 3 (according to my mother!).

All sleep patterns exist on a continuum of malleability.

I'm sure that's true, Leggy.

In the same way that there will always be 'extreme' fussy eaters no matter what their poor parents do (I suspect my Aspie DS1 will end up being one ).

But whilst there will always be extreme examples, for many children - I'd even go so far as to say the majority of children - the techniques will help, even if only a bit.

My 11 yo (yes 11) still doesn't sleep through, it's like musical beds in our house. it's not for the want of trying on both parts, we have tried everything and nothing works. We can have discussions, set plans in motion (obv when he was little try all the bath, bottle bed etc etc) but in the middle of the night it all goes tits up!

He will grow out of it one day I'm sure so I try not to let it stress me out too much.

For me, "sleeping through the night" is exactly what it sounds like - not waking up from when they fall asleep to when it is the morning.

That is what DD did at 4 months and DS at 5 months, after several days of sleep training. This is what their pediatrician suggested we do, and it was the single best advice I have ever received in my life.

Well this is damn depressing for a mum of a 2.4 year old who still doesn't sleep through. And its not from lack of trying either - I have tried loads of stuff.

I find it amazing that people can say "my baby slept through from X age"

DS is 2.4 years and I can easily identify at least 8 different sleep patterns he's been through from birth. When he was waking up cos of reflux (which finally stopped aged 18 months), or a sleep regression (which went on for months), or because he was learning to crawl/sit up/walk (I would spend hours watching him roll round our bed whilst asleep - in his cot he hit the sides and woke up all the time), or, or, or...

In fact, I find the lack of sleep easier in a way now (also helped by co-sleeping!) because with hindsight I see all his different needs at different ages and know that I really couldn't do anything to solve them.

With reflux I went to him when he cried because more often than not he'd then throw up everywhere. No way was I going to CC with that going on.

With him moving in his sleep and hitting the padded bars - well, what the hell as I supposed to do about that? (BTW I am a sleepwalker/talker which he seems to have inherited).

I won't go into more detail but I do not think DS' sleeping is my fault/my bad parenting. It's just fucking unlucky and exhausting.

One thing I will say though is that I disagree that the sleep boards don't provide ideas. I have read many threads and seen many different ideas suggested (a huge thread was called "this is what worked for us" and seemed to help a great number of parents).

I won't go into more detail but I do not think DS' sleeping is my fault/my bad parenting. It's just fucking unlucky and exhausting

Totally agree.......my mum was an insomniac and DH and I both are crap sleepers too, DS never had a chance really. My answer was to buy him a double bed so at least we are comfy now :)

I think there are three groups of babies

One - fantastic sleepers from 6 weeks ish, sleep through no matter what the parents do
Two - bad sleepers because they are in bad habits, wih some sleep training will sleep much better
Three - terrible sleepers no matter what the parents do.

Both of mine were in group two. I sleep trained both at 6 months (no crying, gradual retreat) and both slept through after that. I have many, many friends for whom the same has been true.

However, I think some babies really are in group three and are very resistant to sleep. And mothers of those babies are more likely to be here in the sleep boards, so are perhaps over-represented.

My baby has slept through since about 7 weeks, 11pm - 7am, and then from 16 weeks 7-7 (when we dropped the 11pm feed)

The only time she doesn't, is if she's poorly or teething (to be expected I think!)

Sorry, I don't think it's down to luck - I put a lot of bloody hard work in!

BUT I also don't think it's necessarily a parent's fault if their child doesn't sleep through, and it also doesn't mean that they haven't tried hard too. I'm sure there are plenty of parents out there who have tried everything and for whatever reason, nothing works. However, there are also a lot who accept it though too (the likes of, oh it's normal not to sleep through..really?! Is it?! I don't think so!)

But it does also annoy me when people say, oh you're just lucky.

I certainly wouldn't accept an 11yr old waking me up at night!!!! I'd be allowing him to wake himself up as much as he liked, but god help him if he woke me up too!> Seriously, 11?!

Yes seriously 11!! Easy to say that though when you aren't in that situation.

If most babies were meant to be sleeping through the night that early, why is it such hard work?

I'm sure. But then I remember being a 4 year old myself, (in the days before Gro Clocks ) and knowing that I was not allowed to wake mum and dad up before a certain time. I just wouldn't have dared get out of bed, and wake the household up. Fine that I was awake at 6am or whatever, but I knew that I had to stay put in my room and play.

I just can't see why an 11yr old is able and allowed to disrupt your sleep?

DS has slept through generally from 8 weeks. But considering this as a bonus was essential every time he hit a blasted sleep regression and stopped sleeping for weeks. It meant that I spent time working out what was wrong and going through gradual retreat again until he's back to being put in his cot and left to settle himself to sleep again.

But luck did pay a large part and if that's not on your side I can fully understand not going through anything stricter than gradual retreat with a baby.

Although as a child insomniac by 11 it was certainly clear to me that I was only permitted to read, not wake parents etc if I woke in the night and couldn't settle straight back to sleep.

But I think there is a big difference between not wanting to get in trouble for waking mum and dad and waking up in the night scared. DS is genuinely scared although of what god knows....he doesn't get up but he will wake up and call out.....we have tried ignoring him but he is genuinly frightened and I am not willing to put him through that when I can just nip into his bed and get him to sleep in a few mins.....or I could leave him to call out and get really upset and worried for hours!

I suppose it's a case of how hard we want to be but personally for me having him upset, frightened and just really stressed is not an option. Maybe if he would go back to sleep quickly I would leave him but he doesnt and I need sleep however I get it! He wants to crack it as much as we want him to but in the cold light of day (or dark of night) he just can't help it......he will get there one day though and in the meantime I'm not letting it get us down.

I think if he's got to 11 and still is scared, then yes, you're right, you have to continue to support him. Far too late to be 'cruel to be kind' now Although at 11, he should be able now to verbalise what the problem is? But if he's always done this, it's going to be a habit that only age and time will now solve probably.

When my DC1 was, say, 12 months I would have said that I didn't know any babies in RL his age who didn't sleep through (in the colloquial sense of "all night" rather than the technical sense which I believe is "a block of five hours' sleep" or something like that). FWIW he slept through from around 9 months but went through a bad sleeping patch between 18 months and 2 years.

Then at the round of third birthday parties for his nursery friends loads of parents admitted that their children hadn't slept through for ages -- in a couple of cases at least until 2.5 or so. In fact, the majority of the children hadn't been sleeping through at eight months or twelve months. But no one admitted that when it was still going on, or in fact at all until they had a couple of glasses of wine and other people were admitting it too.

So now any time anyone says "In rl I don't know any children beyond 6 months who don't sleep through" I tend to be doubtful. Because there was a time that I would have said that, but I would have been wrong -- it was just that in rl other parents were afraid of being judged.

I also would have said that I didn't know anyone else who coslept, except that now I am up-front and mention it first it turns out that loads of people did (not the majority or anything like it, but a lot of people) either regularly or from time to time. They just don't mention it unless they know they are with like-minded people because they are afraid of being judged. Similarly with natural term bf. Now that I am old and don't really care whether I am judged any more it's amazing how many more people I suddenly know in rl whose children didn't sleep, or who coslept or bf for a couple of years. And all without meeting any new people...

My DS have both slept through consistantly from about 3 -4 months. They are 8 and 11 now and sleep has never been a problem since. We are very lucky.
Btw, neither has ever slept in our bed, ever. I encouraged reliance on teddies and blankets for comfort.
But each to their own.

As a parent of a 2.2 yr old non sleeper this thread is hard to read without getting cross. The implication that the parents of good sleepers have put more effort in / got into a good routine is laughable .....

My Dc falls firmly into group 3! I have always had the same routine, dark, no interaction, breast fed etc etc....if only it were that simple.

What twothreefoursix said rings most true about different problems at different ages. I think in hindsight Dc must have had silent reflux or cows milk intolerance as she used to wake up screaming up to every 45 mins and passing noisy wind. Sometimes she was soothed by breast milk. This made it impossible to do any sort of CC as I was never sure whether she was in pain. Suddenly at 18m she slept flat on her tummy and didn't move for hours wherease she used to thrash around with bottom in air curling her knees up under her.

I tried all gentle methods of sleep control but they rely on you being able to soothe- shush pat etc doesn't work on a screaming hysterical baby.

All teeth are through at 2 yrs- that was one step forward with sleep then back to weeks of disturbed nights......and the colds and illnesses.

And yes also extremely active in cot, getting stuck at each development stage and immediately pulling to stand and scream before even properly asleep.

And severe separation anxiety

And yes at times I have resorted to co sleeping because I was too physically exhausted to go through to the nursery and sitting for hours in nursery chair waiting for sleep only for the screaming to start when I put DC down or tried to leave was hurting my back.

I think she is highly intelligent and now has an over active imagination and nightmares too.....

The smugness and lack of empathy of some posters is unbelievable.

Everybody wants their children to sleep through the night. What kind of crazy person would WANT disturbed sleep every night for 7 years? Who doesn't long for an angelic cherub that goes to sleep at 7.30 pm and wakes up exactly 12 hours later with a smile and a dry nappy? Of course we want our children to sleep.

all I can add is cc literally saved my sanity. have done it with all of my kids at 7 months onwards and it worked like a magic wand for us.

Betty in that case you have my sincere sympathies. It takes a week, maybe two of disturbed sleep to bring me to my knees.

purplebaubles, that's a bit contradictory saying its down to bloody hard work, but acknowledging some parents try everything! By the way what was the 'bloody hard work'. I tried all the techniques known when dd was a baby and then toddler, but nothing worked. It's shite being sleep deprived and yes I did co sleep and no no feelings of guilt, after all how many other animals leave their babies, even crocs sleep with their young!
Dd now 3:6 sleeps through, unless she sleep walks/ has a bad dream.
My ds was fab sleeper till he started teething at about 6 months and has been up and down ever since he's now just over two. I can't help thinking if you have another you may not be so 'lucky' yes I know you resent people using that term. Of course if you really have found the key to vegetating a good night please tell me I'm fed up with sleep deprivation, maybe you could make your millions by writing a book, I'd pay any mount to get a whole 7 nights sleep without being woken up by screaming at 3 am!!!

I think parents can have some influence over sleep - but not control it. You have to do what you can with the baby you have. If your baby is the sort who will not lie crying in their cot without settling but will instead work themselves into hysterics quickly, then controlled crying may not work. If you have a hungry baby struggling with solids, you may need a more slow and sophisticated approach to dealing with a baby who's genuinely hungry at night.

Also people should recognise that a fuckload of people lie about whether their babies sleep through the night as they think it's a judgement on their baby/their parenting if they have a poor sleeper.

I had to try all manner of sleep training methods before I hit on one that worked for DS after he went from a good sleeper to a shit one at around 7 months. I could have lost a lot of time and spent a lot of energy sticking with things that were pointless because someone else had said it was infallible and I must do it, my kid was able to sleep through the night. He simply wasn't for a range of perfectly valid reasons.

A pick-and-mix of techniques worked in the end but for me I had to decide I cared most about: what is best for him and for me, and what does the evidence say (eg on newborns sleeping solo, how many babies still need feeds at night, recommended ages for different training approaches.

For me it's about having the courage of your convictions that you've done what's right for your situation, and not heeding the rest of the world to be Just Like You.

I haven't seen people be judgy on MN for co-sleeping but I have seen plenty of judginess about leaving your baby to cry even for a minute, or having them in a different room before 6 months.

And there are things you can do that will affect how they sleep. I have a friend whose DD had a dummy in the night. Every night for nearly a year she would be going in when the dummy fell out and her DD would start crying. This would happen 8-10 times a night. Finally she took the dummy away, and her DD cried for 15 minutes before going to sleep. The next night she slept straight through with no crying.