Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

aibu to feel slightly on edge when I come across women in the full black burka?

999 replies

caroleharolde · 23/01/2014 23:20

I just always feel slightly threatened, I know the vast majority of Muslims are lovely nonviolent people but.just this sight always unnerve me. Be honest, who hadn't felt a bit uncomfortable when passing by a huddle of the burqa wearers? Not trying to be racist, I'd feel the same if it were Christians or Jews or any other religion wearing it.

OP posts:
edamsavestheday · 25/01/2014 11:52

I find women covering their faces in traditional/Saudi Islamic dress upsetting. In the West, women (and some men) fought hard for gender equality. That form of dress is either oppressive if inflicted on a woman or, if chosen, like a rebuke, a 'fuck off' to notions of equality.

I know some women choose it as a free choice, some as an act of rebellion. But it does separate them from society, it is a physical barrier between the wearer and everyone else. And it's unnatural - there are regions of the brain that are dedicated to decoding facial expressions. Facial expressions are a major, major element of communication. If a face is covered, you don't know whether the veiled person is grimacing or smiling or neutral.

For hundreds of years, wearing a mask and hiding your face has been regarded as suspicious in the West - think about highwayman or modern-day bank robbers - and you can't overcome that in a few short years.

I know believing in the individual's freedom to choose how to dress and how to live their life means I should respect a choice to cover the face, if it is made freely and without pressure from others. But it's hard.

brettgirl2 · 25/01/2014 11:53

I can believe it actually. At the risk of being very contraversial however I wonder what their real motivation is.

A different type of mn-type competitiveness maybe? I also suspect the proportion of converts wearing the niqab is high.

bodygoingsouth · 25/01/2014 11:54

is this a big part in you life sorry what does that mean?

I live in Birmingham and have masses of relatives in Handsworth, obviously there are some women who wear the burka, most the niqab so yes see this regulaly.

domestic violence, rape, child abuse are not thank God big parts of my life but that doesn't stop me caring and campaigning for human rights.

arnt you bothered in things that you don't regularly see?

edamsavestheday · 25/01/2014 11:57

Oh, and gloria, one of the things I admire in Jewish culture is the way they find a way to get round the rules while keeping them. Wearing wigs and creating eruvs. Ruddy clever and I'm sure if He exists, the Jewish God has a smile on his face seeing how creative his people are while still obeying him.

(Mind you, the only Jewish people I know are Reform, not Orthodox. Although I've chatted to some Orthodox relatives of theirs, I've not discussed eruvs or wigs because it'd be a bit rude to have such a personal conversation with a complete stranger.)

brettgirl2 · 25/01/2014 12:04

I think he's up there shouting 'this isn't what had in mind' when people won't flush the bog.... We beg to differ Wink

bodygoingsouth · 25/01/2014 12:08

I think if there is anyone up there, which I don't, I would ask him why the bloody hell is there so much cruelty, hate, injustice and evil in the world. most of it perpetrated in his name

bodygoingsouth · 25/01/2014 12:19

oh and then I would tell him to fuck off and appoint a woman to sort the bloody mess out.

peacefuloptimist · 25/01/2014 12:49

With all respect Jimmy you (and many other posters on this thread) do not have a clue about why niqab is worn. Some of the things I have read in this thread have truly astonished me about the depth of ignorance of some people. It would be quite amusing to watch if it didn't concern people I know about and care about.

It is interesting how the word ideology keeps cropping up. Is this what this is really about? You want to start an ideological war like the cold war where your fantastical paranoia supercedes reality. And just like then hatred and fear of the other causes you to abandon your own values. So just like then when Western, democratic governments supported dictators, military coups and terrorists against legitimately democratically elected leaders now you want to ignore concepts such as personal freedom and choice and take away muslim women's right to dress the way they like. It always makes me think people must be so insecure about their own decisions if they cant stand the fact that people would willingly chose to live their lives in a way they do not sanction or approve of? Get over it. The colonial era is over people can run their countries and live their lives the way that they want. It is none of your business how Saudi Arabia is run. That is for the people of that country to decide not you. Or do you want to invade a sovereign country and interfere in their affairs just like you did in Iraq and Afghanistan. And if you can get some oil and gas contracts whilst 'liberating' women then its win win for you right?

This fabricated debate has absolutely nothing to do with niqabis or women's rights and everything to do with cultural imperialism. We know what is best for you, little muslim women. Really what makes you any different, in taking the choice away from muslim women to dress as they like, from those caricatured muslim men you speak of.

Its funny how people claim to care about muslim women's rights but as soon as they start expressing their own views and stop being good little victims you turn on them with guns blazing. Then they are just part of the problem, just as culpable as the terrorists. You may accuse me of being angry and that is because I am and I have every right to be. 28 pages of ignorant bs against a minority of women who only want to be left alone to follow their faith in a way they choose.

Im not really interested in engaging in debate with the vast majority of posters in this thread mostly for the reasons that I stated above that I don't believe it will make a blind bit of difference to you. You don't care about muslim women or what they have to say this is about something deeper then that. But for those who are interested in why some muslim women actually wear niqab i will try to explain.

In Islam we have certain acts of worship that we are required to do as a minimum. For example all muslims are expected to pray 5 times a day and to fast in the month of Ramadhan (though of course not all muslims do this). This is the minimum expectation of praying and fasting expected of all muslims however those who want to can do more. Some people wake up in the night to pray as they feel they can concentrate better at that time. Other muslims will fast twice weekly (not as part of the 5:2 diet) as they feel this helps them spiritually. What I am getting at here is that there are minimum requirements with regards to modesty of men and women in Islam. For me the minimum is that you wear the hijab, you do not wear clothing that is see-through or clings to your shape and that no part of your body shows except your face and hands. Other people may have different standards of what they consider modesty in Islam. That is fine as there is room for flexibility. Now just like some people like to pray more then what is required or fast more then what is required as they feel this helps them spiritually, some women like to wear niqab because they feel that it helps them grow spiritually. It has nothing to do with helping men keep their desires in check that is their responsibility and the Quran makes that clear. Before the Quran mentions anything about women dressing modestly it instructs men:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Verily God is aware of what they do." Holy Quran, Chapter 24, verse 30-31

Most muslim scholars have interpreted that the reason why God mentions Muslim men first is that they are responsible for guarding their own modesty. Even if a woman is standing naked in front of them they should lower their gaze and they should control their own lusts. After this the Quran mentions Muslim women. As for the verse mentioned earlier about women wearing hijab so as not to be molested that verse is not referring to muslim men. [Lobs the molotov]. Why would the Quran be referring to the inappropriate behaviour of muslim men towards women there when the earlier verse has already instructed men to control their conduct. Look up the history if your bothered though it might cause you disappointment that its not as fantastical as you would like.

Now for those saying why are muslim men and women not expected to cover up to the same extent, well that one can be fired right back at you. Do men and women dress the same in this society? No. I remember an incident earlier in the year when I went in to town and saw a group of 4 preteens. Two males and two females. Though it was quite cold (I think it was February or March) the two young girls were wearing denim shorts with no tights or leggings and skimpy tops. The boys on the other hand were wearing baggy jeans, jumpers and jackets. Why is it that men in this society can dress comfortably and appropriately for the weather whilst women are under this pressure to always appear sexually attractive. For those who say its just young girls when the weather finally improves and people start getting their summer clothes out take a long look around you and check out how much more skin women need to exposed to not feel hot then the men their sitting with do. Look at the entertainment industry. It is full of diverse examples for young men the women on the other hand all seem to fit a particular look and need to behave in a particular way to get attention. I read an interview given by Miley Cyrus where she said when she covered up people called her boring. Is this the sort of example you want young women to follow? Get your tits and bum out otherwise your boring? Which mode of dressing do you think would be more appealing for men for women to bare all or dress modestly. For those who will say why does it matter what men think well it is you who framed this as a feminist argument and seem incapable of accepting that muslim women can choose to practise their religion without being forced by their men so in the same way I cant believe that a woman would wear a mini skirt, heels and a skimpy top in icy December of her own free choice.

In Muslim countries you will see that actually men and women dress in a very similar manner. In the Middle East both men and women wear long flowing robes. In Pakistan both men and women wear shalwar kameez (Im sure the mens one is not called that though) though women wear more colourful and attractive ones whilst the men's ones tend to be quite bland. I know its such a big deal to some that the women wear black but ever heard of an LBD. Why is it black? To show women are evil or because little black dresses are flattering? In the same way a long black robe is more flattering to a womans shape then a long white robe. That's why middle eastern women wear it and they can bling it up a lot more then men can the white robe.

The beard is sort of the equivalent of the niqab. (Think about it do you find a man with a huge beard attractive?) In fact most muslim scholars would interpret the beard to be obligatory for men to have but would not consider the niqab to be obligatory. At least women who wear niqab get to take niqab off whilst the men who follow that opinion have to keep their long beards in all occasions.

Caitlin17 · 25/01/2014 12:52

edam off topic but whilst one might admire the ingenuity used in constructing eruvs I might be more impressed by someone who gives some consideration to what bother paying lip service to a rule they think needs to be got round. Why bother at all?

AddictedToCoffee · 25/01/2014 13:14

Totally agree with peacefuloptimist, what are insightful, well thought and educational post.

However, don't be suprised if the majority posters choose to ignore you....that's what they like to do to muslim women who dare to have a voice because obviously they know better!

JimmyChooChoo · 25/01/2014 13:15

The point is, the burka represents things that we claim to oppose when we speak about women's equality. It runs counter to democratic values and norms because it designates women a different and separate existence. It does so because it sends women to the back of the bus. Covers us, excludes us, and forces us to live half a life. Is this not harm? Should the choice to cause this harm therefore not be restricted?
There are other ills caused by the covering of the face; if I raise the issue of social cohesion or security, I will again be met with a defence of 'choice'. The covering of the face separates people and keeps them from mainstream society. It prevents women who wear it from taking on certain roles, it limits their freedom by severely curtailing their employment prospects – keeping them dependent and isolated. It ghettoises and separates Muslims from non-Muslims and sows the seeds for generations of disconnect and distrust. Should we have a choice to promote and maintain such a direction?

brettgirl2 · 25/01/2014 13:18

peaceful that's fine and as I said agree with the rights of women to wear what they want for whatever reason. But it isn't always what they want is it? What then?

VampyreofTimeandMemory · 25/01/2014 13:20

body if there is someone up there, it's nothing to do with him/her - it's how people interpret the bible or the qur'an. with most religions, i think there is a lot of picking and choosing going on.

Ubik1 · 25/01/2014 13:20

take away muslim women's right to dress the way they like I don't think, if any have advocated that , although it is commonsense to ask women to remove headdress if they need to be identified.

It is none of your business how Saudi Arabia is run. That is for the people of that country to decide not you. or for the wealthy royal family to decide how they run what is frankly a rich but certainly not modern society. I don't think the people get a say, do they?

Even if a woman is standing naked in front of them they should lower their gaze and they should control their own lusts This is something I find quite offensive - this overtly sexualised conception of male/female relationships. I am quite able to go for a drink, actually get drunk with male friends at at no point will they be overwhelmed with lust. Because I am their friend. We are all in control of our 'lust'

I don't find women wearing the niquab scary or offensive. But Im not going to pretend that expressing an opinion on it as 'cultural imperialism' Hmm

Nancy66 · 25/01/2014 13:26

It's everyone's business how countries like Saudi Arabia operate. God forbid that more civilised nations start turning a blind eye to the stonings, the rapes, the executions of children

bodygoingsouth · 25/01/2014 13:27

peaceful yes lovely however no where have you addressed the rights of those women who do not want to wear the burka but are required to at risk arrest, intimidation or worse.

the rights if those who do not are as equal as those who do.

regarding your rude comments about depths of ignorance being laughable

I find any human being who follows any religion which let's face it are man made and are all about controlling your lives and stripping you of individual power of thought or question, equally ignorant but unlike you I don't find it funny I find it sad.

gordyslovesheep · 25/01/2014 13:28

Jimmy it's just an outfit I think you are putting way too much significance on it. Dresses separate women from men - shall we ban them too?

you are mixing up women choosing to what they wear with women being forced to - being forced to is bad - be it Muslim women, Christian or atheist - women exercising free will - none of our beeswax.

JimmyChooChoo · 25/01/2014 13:32

Jimmy it's just an outfit I think you are putting way too much significance on it. Dresses separate women from men - shall we ban them too

Completely disagree. How on earth can you compare women wearing dresses to a burqa which completely covers the identity of a woman?

bodygoingsouth · 25/01/2014 13:33

Saudi Arabia has a vile and unspeakable regime.

in some parts of Pakistan the rape stats are so high even it's own government are trying to take action. plenty of covering up there but not do much make restraint is there.

peacefuloptimist · 25/01/2014 13:33

Nancy are you on something. Truly someone has got to be high to spout the bs and believe the bs you are saying. I have visited Saudi and lived there for a time. The country has problems like any other but stoning children is not one of them and women had very little fear of rape. Honestly I would feel more comfortable walking around at night in Saudi on my own then I would in the UK.

Hmm don't know exactly what I wrote offended you there. What would you prefer the Quran to say if a woman is standing in front of you uncovered she is asking for it do what you like. If everyone could control themselves we wouldn't need to make laws against sexual harassment, abuse, violence and rape. Clearly not being able to control ones self is a human problem if you look at statistics about sexual violence against women around the world.

VampyreofTimeandMemory · 25/01/2014 13:33

it's not 'just an outfit' though is it, can't believe anyone would deny that no woman is forced to wear this 'outfit' by her family. if i came on and said that dp made me wear jeans, even in hot weather, because he didn't want me showing any skin, what responses would i get?

VampyreofTimeandMemory · 25/01/2014 13:35

so peaceful you reckon a good solution for preventing rape would be for all women on earth to wear a burka?

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 25/01/2014 13:35

I think women covering up completely in these country bars them integrating. Part of our western culture is face to face communication, wearing full face covering prevents that.

brettgirl2 · 25/01/2014 13:36

There is a big difference between being 'uncovered' and wearing a burka.....

gordyslovesheep · 25/01/2014 13:36

yes as most people have repeatedly said being FORCED to do anything is wrong - but you can't sweepingly deny people choice

If you where forced to wear jeans should we ban every woman from wearing them?

Swipe left for the next trending thread