aibu to feel slightly on edge when I come across women in the full black burka?

[caroleharolde]

I just always feel slightly threatened, I know the vast majority of Muslims are lovely nonviolent people but.just this sight always unnerve me. Be honest, who hadn't felt a bit uncomfortable when passing by a huddle of the burqa wearers? Not trying to be racist, I'd feel the same if it were Christians or Jews or any other religion wearing it.

Just a thought ...why is it that we dont find a man topless in the summer walking down the street shocking or offensive yet if we were to see a woman walking around wth her thrupny bits out we would most of us be quite shocked same sort of thing really if think about it. ?..different levels of what modesty means for a man and a woman?

On the lapdancing thread a while back there were a few who considered that is empowering women. I don't agree. I think workers in the sex industry perpetuate and are complicit in misogyny.

I don't think wearing a burka or a niqab is empowering either. I cannot comprehend the mindset of anyone male or female who thinks the female body is so provocative and dangerous it has to be covered up.

Both lapdancers and niqab wearers are free in this country to wear as little or as much as they like and I'm free to hold my views on the message they are sending out.

I am very familiar with many women who wear a niqab and not one of them is unhappy or forced to do anything quite the opposite infact ... I have been told that it is very liberating!!! Most of the girls I know are dressed exactly like you and I underneath have beautiful hair and perfectly applied makeup lol

Body - are you very old? Have you read all the comments (specifically jimmy's)? Think maybe you should and then get back to me.

Btw, thanks for the complement....love being told i'm young, though don't feel it some days!

does anyone know when/why they started wearing burkas?

It is ok to be opposed to cultural norms that are the opposing your own values. I oppose FGM, that is a cultural norm for some cultures, I oppose page 3, I oppose burkas and niqab. I am not opposed to women who have been exposed to these cultural norms. It is simply not ok for a culture to promote a norm where women are given a second class citizen status, that amounts still to almost every nation in the whole world. It is actually ok to want that to change IMO.

I believe that Jewish people are a race. But fuck that. If I criticised the ideology of Judaism it would not be racist.

I would be criticising the ideas, not the race.

To criticise islam in any way is definitely not racist. It is just criticising ideology and phklosolhy that people hold, regargardless of their race.

The opposite of racism in fact.

just had quick look on wiki which says that some interpretations of what the Qur'an says about men and women dressing modestly, say that the veil is not compulsory in front of blind, asexual or gay men. not a very positive message about Muslim men!

I'm sure some muslim women would tell you that burkha's and niqabs are not just cultural. And they may also object to you classifying them as second class citizens...just a thought.

It is very true that these threads do turn to muslim bashing, hence the reluctance of muslim posters to join the thread. It can be futile. It seems pretty much inevitable that it will go down that path due to the bigotry and prejudices covered as concern.

For those bigots who claim to be disingenuously concerned about the burka wearers and for those who are utterly vile and see women in niqabs similar to a dog - really reminds me of imperialism and the colonial past.

How can you possibly fear someone who is supposedly oppressed. Or do you just want a policy of assimilation just like the one from the colonial past?

Addicted plenty of women though out history did not recognise women as being second class citizens..... They too knew their place. We would be waiting a while if we relied on them to get us a vote.

Saying 'extreme Islam' is a backlash against Western feminism ignores a few things.

All conservative factions of religions have had an uprise globally over the last couple of decades. All of them, not just Islam. There are many reasons for this - they tend to be the groups openly trying to convert others, openly attach their charity to their faith, give very absolute answers which some find comforting, and so on. Hasidic Judaism is on the rise and has given birth to the Hasidic Noachide movement over the last few decades having an even wider reach. There are so many other dynamics at play.

The most Islamic countries repeatedly given as examples in this thread were liberal in the 70s and it wasn't feminism that caused either revolution (Iran's was backed by Britain, Afghanistan's was backed by US, Israel's more religious conservatism has foreign backing). Ignoring that these revolutions were heavily pushed by imperialistic efforts by Western countries to become more conservative ignores that Western governments and corporation see a benefit to this and have backed this to the point of a supporting and pushing these forward. We must question what the West is gaining if we hope to actually challenge something that the West supported in the first place.

That there are feminist movements within Islam, as well as around the world in post colonial feminism, and Western feminism isn't the be all, end all, or even considered the best representation of gender equality even in the West - many activists back away from using it because Western feminism's current form is still so problematic. It's refusal to challenge itself, it's place in historical and current imperialism and the continual usage of the White woman as universal in theory, practice, and representation (when it's obviously a global minority position). As the quote goes, it's hard to listen to all men being the enemy when our forefathers were killed for looking your foremothers in the eye. I would trust Islamic and Afghanistan's feminists far more on the issue of burkas than a top down approach from Western feminists, particularly if they think they somehow caused the religious conservatism upswing. We should be supporting their work, not talking down and parroting the same quote over and over demonising them.

bodygoingsouth: nennypops thought your post was good until the last sentence. people may dislike the burka for many reasons other than 'sheer prejudice' personally I see it as a very visible sign of sexism and oppression.

That is a perfectly valid reason for disliking the burkha. My point about prejudice related not to people who dislike it, but people who claim to feel "on edge" or similar when in the vicinity of people wearing burkhas.

Still no answer from niqab defenders.

Why do men choose to never cover their faces?

Without an answer all the arguements whether religious, cultural or feminist are all nonsense

I think people should have the choice. I don't think they are threatening but I do like to see the face of whom I'm talking to.

Another - glad that you can come in and save them from themselves!! Patronising much?!

"Why do men choose to never cover their faces? Without an answer all the arguements whether religious, cultural or feminist are all nonsense."

Because God hasn't told them to. Simple answer.

Men are told to dress modestly, cover between navel & knees and make their faces ugly grow beards. Not sure which I would prefer if faced with the choice of hiding inside a black curtain or having to grow a looong beard for the rest of my life.

ok so you are American? gotten?? if you are though, as I suspect, British I will just let you know that I am actually left wing and have never ever been bigoted.

I do however accept that everyone's opinion is valid as long as they are not inciting hatred.

sorry gotten???

defuse none of my posts have expressed concern , disingenuous or otherwise, the wearers. I've set out my reasons why I dislike burkas and niqabs and for that matter strippers. I don't think any of them are doing women any favours.

Are you saying holding any opinion other than it's fine and lovely is bigoted?

Can I just say that anyone feeling threatened just by the way someone is dressed is a total wuss anyway.

Really Latara then BNP skinheads will be just fine too. I think the thread has moved on feeling "threatened" It could be a debate about the compatibility or otherwise with the niqab etc with feminism in secular liberal democracies except putting the question up for debate automatically makes one a bigot.

Another - glad that you can come in and save them from themselves!! Patronising much

No another I can oppose those cultural norms you can defend them. 2 opposing views that is all.