to worry about the accused?

[WitchWay]

DLT for example. How is anything going to be proven? Are people jumping on a bandwagon or am I very wrong to even think that? I don't condone abuse - far from it - but surely they can't all have been sailing along in JS's wake - can they?

Why, in any discussion of rape, does the possibility of lying by the accuser have to be on the table? If it is less than 3% of accusations then why is that a strong enough statistic to have on the table?
In a medical treatment would less than 3% be taken into overall consideration? Or a pharma breakthrough? Or a stock market variable? Etc. Someone explain why this is such an important part of this crime.

I think it's because of the effects on someone's life. I'd said it isn't 'integral' to the debate, because of the sheer scale of the incidence of sexual violence that is apparent but unreported. ( quick surveys over the years on this site testifies to that.)
The vast vast majority of local crime ( burglaries/robberies/other thefts/car crime) is commited by a small bunch of young recidivists - we know that. The impact though of being accused of an act of sexual or DA is much more profound. A stock market variable is of a different nature.

SuzanneUK, I would appreciate an apology for you getting your facts wrong in this post.

SuzanneUK Tue 21-Jan-14 18:12:39

It was Beachcomber that brought up false allegations: I was responding to her posting re same.

It may not seem important to you, but it is to me because I find it appalling that this nonsense about false allegations is constantly dragged up and am amongst the last people to bring up this nefarious rape myth.

But PAN as Beach says a much bigger problem with much less airspace is rapists lying about raping. Why is that not also discussed with as much verve/frequency? And God knows how many lives are shattered by one rapist. One false accusation by one woman against one man = one life ruined. One rapist free = how many lives ruined? The numbers on every side of that discussion seem to me to HUGE and not considered as important.

false allegations are rare - non reporting is not

from what i can see being justly accused of rape and not even being aquitted - ie hung charges - do not adversely affect anyome whereas the victim and their familyhave had their life shattered - although I am speaking anecdotally about 1 instance I have heard the same story over and over again

fact is people don't want to face up to the fact their loved ones are abusers - so the defend, ignore and marginalise the victim and those who stand by them because that is easier than upsetting their own cosy little world.

In my 20 + years as a defence solicitor I represented many men charged with rape. The law takes its course with all of them, and you know wome are up against strong evdence and in other cases clear evidence comes to light that an allegation was false. Fortunately with false allegations a good defence solicitor can see something in the CTV evidence, or finds a witness who heard the complainant admitting not telling the truth, but I always worried about innocent men being convicted. Sometimes CPS would push a case forward without much of a case because pressure was put on them by the complainants family, for example. If there was anything sexually unusual - such as threesome - involved the case would inevitably head for trial regardless of the evidence.

Dave Lee Travis and Jimmy Saville

Have you actually watched some of the footage that they used to include on TOTP 2 until a few years ago?
It was cringe making.
Abundantly clear that some of the girls were deeply uncomfortable about where the wandering hands were going.
At least one of the current cases - the whole thing was filmed as part of the programme but cut from broadcast.

Complaints were made many times over the years but these people were untouchable
The Met even had a "celebrity issues" unit that covered up for them and sat on the Saville complaints so they could not be linked by other forces.

I find it very sad to realise that people who were part of my childhood affected other people's childhoods in such a pernicious manner.

Even sadder the singer who wrote songs about the imaginary affair that may (court case later in the year) turn out to have been real.

Someone lying to keep their freedom is a lot different to someone lying to convict another.

How many people think MJ was guilty? This is despite him never being convicted, infact found innocent in court. Corrie Michael has had death threats, rapist graffiti on his home etc after being found innocent. This is what happens to their lives. It's not the fault of the police etc, but some people in society will forever say they're guilty.

SuzanneUK, I would appreciate an apology for you getting your facts wrong in this post.

SuzanneUK Tue 21-Jan-14 18:12:39

It was Beachcomber that brought up false allegations: I was responding to her posting re same.

I did not get my facts wrong, but I see how my post might have been misinterpreted.

I am quite happy to confirm that Beachcomber did not introduce to this thread the subject of false allegations.

At a quite advanced point in the thread, Beachcomber mentioned false allegations and I responded to her post, using the words 'false allegations'.

Somebody or other then followed my posting with "Again with the false allegations"

I took that to mean I was being criticised for raising the topic 'again' and I responded by pointing out quite accurately that it was Beachcomber that brought up false allegations in the post to which I was responding when I used the words.

Hope that clears the matter up.

Brat and Beach - I'm not disagreeing with you at all. It isn't as important (for the reasons of scale I and others referred to before), but simply recognising the existence of false allegation doesn't queer the pitch for the drive for better conviction rates, at all. It isn't one or the other.
eg the reporting rates for 'historic' offences have shot through the roof since JS - the prior assumptions of 'lack of evidence and authenticity' have dribbled away moreso. IT would appear that the fear of being seen as being a false alledger is reducing and that (among others that remain implacable) is a much reduced barrier.

Well, gee thanks SuzanneUK.

At a quite advanced point in the thread, Beachcomber mentioned false allegations

False allegations were brought up on this thread way before I joined it. Indeed you (amongst others) brought the subject up before I joined the thread.

False allegations were brought up on this thread way before I joined it. Indeed you (amongst others) brought the subject up before I joined the thread.

Yes, that's entirely correct.

I tried to make it clear that although you brought up the subject at an advanced point in the thread, you certainly did not introduce the subject to the thread.

but simply recognising the existence of false allegation doesn't queer the pitch for the drive for better conviction rates, at all.

But it does Pan - when the constant banging on about false allegations for rape perpetuate the rape myth that women lie about rape. Especially given that we know that they don't lie about rape anymore than lies are told about any other type of crime .

Women, thousands of them, do not report sexual offences because they know that they will be accused of lying.

Men get away with rape because they know that their victims will be accused of lying.

Stuart Hall pleaded not guilty right up till he saw the evidence lined up against him
His family stood by him as he lied to them and to the press.
The women he harmed during filming Its a Knockout were vindicated despite his denials up till the very last minute.

I tried to make it clear that although you brought up the subject at an advanced point in the thread

SuzanneUK perhaps it would be simpler and less convuluted if you could just say that I neither introduced the subject, nor brought it up.

I didn't 'bring it up'. Other posters (including you) did. And I replied.

I have been very lucky to have had a life free from a sex attack. I have however, like almost every woman on the planet probably, had unwanted attention, aggression when I refused it and was physically groped one night in a night club. I never, ever thought about any of it until I started to read Mumsnet. This place has really taught me a thing or three about rape, rape myths and misogyny. I view it very clearly now as I never would have before. And thank God as I now have 3 little girls. And recently, for the first time in my life I had someone tell me that she had been raped. I knew exactly what to say to her. So thank you all for this type of debate. It has been/ will be invaluable to me.

Sometimes CPS would push a case forward without much of a case because pressure was put on them by the complainants family, for example.

Cant speak for the past but that is such bollox in the modern day life of a victim - they aren't allowed to speak to the CPS as a matter of course, and any pressure they put on the CPS - as you say - is handed over to the defence who then twist that.

As for the law does its course, I am quite, quite sure that you wouldn't trust your children and your family and their friends with a lot of these "innocent" men, and even if you did, you would be in a better place than the children whose innocence you were risking, because you would know who and what you were chosing to let into their lives.

The defence can introduce anything they like, factual or not, they can make up what they like - so long as the defence barrister does no "know" it is a falsehood, there is no burden of evidence on the defence in the same way as there is for the prosecution, it is the defence job to introduce reasonable doubt, even if that reasonable doubt is entirely based on a pack of lies that cannot be backed up or evidenced.

In addition an awful lot of evidence is suppressed, because the accused has a lot more rights than the victim, what jury wouldn't feel sick if they knew the man they had just let walk free had over 100 arrests for DV on the woman he has just painted as a complete slapper, but this is not allowed before a jury because there have never been any convictions.

I have stood in court and seen men and boys, who are well known in their local communities for high violence, disruption, anti social behaviour, painted as saints, while their victims, who have never put a foot wrong, are vilified in court, sometimes along with their families, regardless of whether their families play a part inthe trial and have a chance to defence themselves.

In our case, the fact I was a hysterical sobbing wreck unable to enter the court room for the summing up, was used to paint me as an uncaring person who - and I quote "couldn't be bothered to be there", of course, as the defence barrister gets the last word, that was the last thing the jury heard.

Also I have seen jurors ASLEEP, I mean seriously asleep, during trials, more than once - how can they sleep and be allowed to sleep and then have a clear picture of what has happened.

It is well known and well accepted in CJS circles that conviction rates are too low and many, many guilty men are walking around out there and that juries do not like to jail young white "respectable men" in case they get it wrong.

Also, I keep reading about women and girls, men and boys also get abused and raped, and some charities consider that under reporting is 10 times that of female under reporting - which of itself is shockingly low.

The law is an arse that fails on all levels, if there were more successful prosecutions, if less guilty men walked free, it would be better for - because not guilty would mean exactly that.

Bitter personal experience tells me - that even where there has not been an aquittal it is the victim and their family who have their lives destroyed, and I have heard that hundreds of times.

After what I have seen and heard and been through, I can seriously say, I would never ever subject any member of family that is the farce of a criminal justice system in this country for a victim, and that - saddens me more than anything, it was worse than the abuse in the first place.

but simply recognising the existence of false allegation doesn't queer the pitch for the drive for better conviction rates, at all.

it simply fuels that fire that victims are liars an enables people to hide from their crimes, both literally and emotionally,

"all it takes for evil to thrive is good men to do nothing"

Just wanted to point out, that it's not JUST rape accusations in the media that ruin lives. There have been cases where papers have published names of suspects, people taken in for questioning or "helping police with their inquiries" is always a good one. Charges are later dropped, but lives are derailed, if not ruined. Does anyone remember the landlord in the Jo Yates case? In the recent JS etc cases, I believe that all the media had to say is that inquires were being opened into several historic cases involving people in the public eye. It should have been enough to encourage women to come forward, but without putting words into their mouths/ leaving them open to that accusation. I really don;t give a monkeys what the alleged crime is - everyone should be granted that anonymity.

Recognising it, and constantly banging on about it are two quite distinctive things. I just recognised it, which would appear to be too much.
Some years ago ( may have mentioned this previously) I was accused of quite serious DV, endured 3-4 hours of v impertinent questioning about my life at a police station, sans a solicitor as I knew what I was saying didn;t need interpreting, and left without charge. ( the last time I hit someone was a male in 1982 and entirely justified). But a prosecution could have ruined my impending career, and that was something I always wanted to do. I mention that as the assessment of individual cases are seen in the round (and politically quite rightly so). But someone upthread recently referred to an 'easy' calculation re impact and outcomes for victim/aggressor and these cases are never that easy to weigh up.

But there was a sexual aspect to the stories about Jo's landlord too, wasn't there? Won't repeat the crap that was said about him but attempts were made to smear him with details about his private life.

I think the way the media reports sex abuse cases is utterly disgusting. It's all very well to grant the victim anonymity, but imagine having to read every detail of the attack on you in the fucking DM or Sun?

It's is enough to say that someone has been raped or abused. There is absolutely no necessity to describe how - none. I can only imagine that they insist on giving us the details because they know it titillates some people.

I find it interesting that Suzanne is pretty adamant that women and girls routinely lie about rape and men must be protected from them...

Even to the point of calling into question whether people who have actually been convicted of these types of crimes did it. In the sense of, well some people believe she was lying, some people believe he was guilty. Even after a guilty verdict in a court of law. Righty-ho.

I think Suzanne would like a situation where any female trying to report a rape or sexual assault was assumed guilty (of lying) until proven innocent, at which point an investigation into her complaint may start. Possibly.

Fortunately for her, this has been the situation for women and girls over the past decades, and appears to continue for at least some victims, in some areas if news reports are to be believed.

happy days, suzanne!

SuzanneUK perhaps it would be simpler and less convuluted if you could just say that I neither introduced the subject, nor brought it up.

I didn't 'bring it up'. Other posters (including you) did. And I replied.

Okay, let me rephrase: you used the words after several other people had mentioned the subject and I replied immediately, also using the words.

I find it interesting that Suzanne is pretty adamant that women and girls routinely lie about rape

And I find it interesting that you believe I've ever suggested such a thing or that I believe it to be even remotely true.

I find it interesting that Suzanne is pretty adamant that women and girls routinely lie about rape and men must be protected from them...

She has neither said nor implied that.

I think that some posters are putting words into Suzanne's mouth. I haven't read anywhere where she has said "that women and girls routinely lie about rape and men must be protected from them..". She has pointed out that there are a small number of false accusations made, and the fact that the number is small does not mean that it should be ignored. We do need to take steps to protect the innocent victim, whichever role they slot into.