to worry about the accused?

[WitchWay]

DLT for example. How is anything going to be proven? Are people jumping on a bandwagon or am I very wrong to even think that? I don't condone abuse - far from it - but surely they can't all have been sailing along in JS's wake - can they?

You had already posted about it before beach even joined the thread Suzanne. I had already mentioned that I found your comments on it objectionable before beach even joined the thread.

It's awkward for you that all your previous posts - well, the ones that haven't been deleted anyway - are there for all to see, isn't it?

Well, Suzanne - look at the Ched Evans case. Would you say the vitriol was given to the rapist or the victim?

That was a hotly disputed case which, following his conviction, is still very much alive in the form of an Internet campaign for his release and for the quashing of his conviction.

In such cases, the victim will inevitably attract vitriol from those who believe she lied about the assault.

Equally, Evans attracted and will continue to attract vitriol from those who believe he is guilty.

People do not like to believe that decent people - people they may like - have committed a sexual offence. Look at the support Rennard has, the support DLT and others have - even on this thread.

A fair point. I agree.

People victim-blame; sexual offences cause victims to feel shame. Sometimes, such a level of shame that they won't report them and suffer in silence. This is why they're granted anonymity - amongst other reasons - to try and improve the woeful reporting rates

Another fair point. I very much agree.

These men are facing double prosecution; one lawful by the Crown and one jubilant and unjust from the media and it's band of merry sheep-like followers.

They may or may not be charged, may or may not have done the crime but they will be judged because are in the public eye.

I remember quite vividly being accosted by a neighbour, the dad of one of my brother's friends when I was a young teen. He wasn't made to face anything or anybody but then he wasn't famous and I didn't tell. I wonder how many men whose partners smugly post on MN or other fora are just like that neighbour? Lecherous and targeting young girls only with the benefit of anonymity in not being a celebrity.

I completely agree with Suzanne's posts challenging the ridiculous ones.

You had already posted about it before beach even joined the thread Suzanne.

I've posted about it many times and shall continue to post about it as false allegations are an integral part of any debate on sexual abuse trials.

I took your use of 'again' to indicate that you thought I'd brought up the subject 'again', and you'd failed to realise I was responding to Beach's post on the topic.

Make your meaning clearer in future, please.

Why should false allegations be so important in discussions about rape? They make up a tiny percentage, and that percentage is comparable (if not less) than other crimes. Why is it not discussed about terrorism, murder, child murder, mugging, burglary?

It is, of course, entirely reasonable to want more guilty rapists convicted but it's wholly unreasonable to want more men convicted of rape regardless of guilt or innocence.

Perhaps the saddest aspect of threads about rape that the rabid man-haters seem to want an innocent man convicted for every guilty man who ever got away with it.

As if that somehow redresses the balance.

Who knows? Perhaps in their strange minds, it does?

Nobody's said that, Suzanne.

Lying, I wonder how many men like your lecherous neighbour regularly post on MN and other fora themselves.

Why should false allegations be so important in discussions about rape? They make up a tiny percentage, and that percentage is comparable (if not less) than other crimes. Why is it not discussed about terrorism, murder, child murder, mugging, burglary?

Because in terrorism, murder, child murder, mugging and burglary trials, the defendant's guilt or innocence is rarely if ever decided upon the testimony of the alleged victim and upon no other evidence whatever.

Two cases spring to mind for me. Steubenville, Ohio and a case in Southern Ireland. In both cases the victims were known and lost the 1st case. (Both results changed in round two). I was blow away by the harassment, stalking and cruelty thrown at both women and their families. Strangers approaching them at any given moment in their lives threatening to do it to them again, accusing them of liking it, crank calls, appalling things on the internet etc. In the Stubenville case it got so bad the family had to pack up and leave.

The nature if this crime is so utterly abhorrent and the courage needed to come forward is so enormous that it is vital to protect those women in any way possible.

If the accused, in all the big cases at the moment are cleared, they will have a big headline declaring their innocence and a press interview on the steps of the courthouse. This seems to me to be fair. They get their moment.

So let's not worry too much about them.

Perhaps the saddest aspect of threads about rape that the rabid man-haters seem to want an innocent man convicted for every guilty man who ever got away with it.

That appears to be a constructed fear fantasy of yours that has no relevance here or anywhere else.

SuzanneUK Tue 21-Jan-14 10:21:57

Hope you don't have daughters.

And I hope you never have a son accused falsely of rape.

I joined the thread at Tue 21-Jan-14 13:02:49 to comment on anonymity of men accused of rape.

The subject of false allegations had already been brought up several times by then (as it always is on rape threads because it is soooo important to make out that women routinely lie about rape and this has nooothing to do with 94% of victims of sexual offences deciding not to report them. Nothing at all, no siree...), although a quick search shows that SuzanneUK's post of above was one of the earlier mentions.

I only started posting about false accusations after the Strawman of The Year post about accusing 3% of the population of random false crimes somehow having something to do with rape.

I don't know Sabrina, it's a sobering thought indeed. Hundreds? Thousands?

I wish that those "quoting" statistics would use the full quotes.

Suzanne, you're giving far to much consideration to something which affects only 2-3% of cases - of reported cases at that.

A far more pressing concern is the failure to get cases to court, and to get victims to report in the first place. Only 1 in 10 women will report a rape, and I heard a report about a very high percentage of rape cases never even making it to the cps, let alone court.

When a rape case is not reported, or brought to court, there is zero chance of justice being carried out in a fair trial.

I've posted about it many times and shall continue to post about it as false allegations are an integral part of any debate on sexual abuse trials.

No they aren't. Unless you buy into the misogynist belief that girls and women are liars and unreliable.

It is because of the myth that women and girls routinely lie about sexual violence that we need anonymity for victims. It is because of this myth that convictions are so low. It is because of this myth that men rape over and over again and are never caught or it takes years and several corroborating victims for them to be convicted.

You are perpetuating this myth SuzanneUK.

Suzanne, you're giving far to much consideration to something which affects only 2-3% of cases - of reported cases at that.

I don't agree.

I think injustice is worth discussing no matter how rarely it occurs.

A far more pressing concern is the failure to get cases to court, and to get victims to report in the first place. Only 1 in 10 women will report a rape, and I heard a report about a very high percentage of rape cases never even making it to the cps, let alone court.

I see room in the world (and on Mumsnet) for both subjects to be discussed.

When a rape case is not reported, or brought to court, there is zero chance of justice being carried out in a fair trial.

A fair and very important point.

I'd disagree that false allegations are an integral part of the debate. On the other hand (there's always one isn't there?) yes some girls and women do lie about allegations. You don't have to be a misogynist to recognise that fact at all.

This infographic shows the shocking lack of justice for the vast majority of rape victims.

Suzanne using this thread and other threads similar as your own personal crusade to prove to yourself that people found guilty of rape or accused of rape are actually innocent isn't going to wash.

Statistically for every false report there will be hundreds if not thousands of non reports. In addition - someone dropping charges because they can't cope, CPS not proceding, judges changing their mind and so on and so forth are not false allegations and are routinely quoted by people trying to sideline others with statistics.

You aren't convincing anyone else and by the sounds of it you aren't convincing yourself either.

No matter how hard you try the truth is buried somewhere regardless of whether a person chooses to acknowledge it or not.

Why, in any discussion of rape, does the possibility of lying by the accuser have to be on the table? If it is less than 3% of accusations then why is that a strong enough statistic to have on the table?
In a medical treatment would less than 3% be taken into overall consideration? Or a pharma breakthrough? Or a stock market variable? Etc. Someone explain why this is such an important part of this crime.

The statistic about so few women reporting rape should not be lumped together with the one that shows how many reported cases make it to court.

Absolutely, women should be given every encouragement & opportunity to report attacks against them. I'm pretty sure there's loads more we can do as a society to support them.

But it's hard to know what to do about the fact that so few cases are taken to court. It's all about the evidence, I'm afraid, and if there's little or none, then the CPS can't prosecute. This is NOT an indication that the police & CPS think they're liars (although I know it can feel like that) but there has to be a reasonable prospect of conviction - without evidence, there isn't any.

I think Suzanne has taken a bit of an unfair battering on here. She's not saying victims don't deserve anonymity - just that the accused should get the same. I'm not sure I agree, but lots and lots of people do agree with her, including some professional commentators.

I do worry sometimes that naming the accused can lead to the identity of the alleged victim - as I'm pretty sure happened in a recent big case.

And she has a point about the statistics regarding false reports. The 3- 5% statistic that's reported accounts for those cases where they know & have evidence that the report was completely false. There are a large number of reports that don't make it to court because of lack of evidence. This means it's impossible to know with any certainty whether they are false or not. There's a very big grey area.

Not that this is particularly relevant when we're talking about prosecutions, which clearly do have evidence supporting them.

Statistics, as usual, never really tell you that much. What I do know is that whoever it was up thread who said that most of us know a woman whose been raped & not reported it is right.....I know two, and most of my friends (and me) have been on the receiving end of some degree of sexual assault during our lives.

Suzanne using this thread and other threads similar as your own personal crusade to prove to yourself that people found guilty of rape or accused of rape are actually innocent isn't going to wash

Suzanne has never stated that at all.

Suzanne using this thread and other threads similar as your own personal crusade to prove to yourself that people found guilty of rape or accused of rape are actually innocent isn't going to wash.

And most of the people crazy enough to believe I'm on any such crusade are very unlikely to wash either.

But at least give yourself an occasional blast with an air-freshener, okay?

But Pan, no more false rape allegations are made than false allegations for any other crime. The stats on false allegations are completely in line with other crime. It happens, it is rare, it is the same across the board for crime in general.

People feeling the need to constantly bang on about it bigs the subject up. Why do people do that? Don't they see how damaging it is to the already fucking appalling conviction rates for sexual offences?

Rapists lying about rape is a much bigger problem than women lying about it. 94% get away without even being reported let alone arrested let alone convicted. The problem with sexual offences (other than the hugely damaging levels at which they occur with 1 in 4 women being a victim) is lack of reporting for fear of not being believed/being made out to be a liar.

But still some people prefer to bang on about a tiny % of false allegations which nearly always turn out to be by people with serious mental health issues or are cases of mistaken indentity.

Weird priorities. But not wholly unexepected given the circular nature of misogynistic myths.

Men get away with rape because they are unlikely to suffer sanctions for it. They are unlikely to suffer sanctions because girls and women are painted as liars about sexual violence. Even though everyone knows that sexual violence is hugely common.