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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to worry about the accused?

539 replies

WitchWay · 20/01/2014 20:12

DLT for example. How is anything going to be proven? Are people jumping on a bandwagon or am I very wrong to even think that? I don't condone abuse - far from it - but surely they can't all have been sailing along in JS's wake - can they?

OP posts:
NiceTabard · 21/01/2014 22:27
Confused

Sorry I thought you were interested in the tens of thousands of people who don't report / never see justice!

i got the wrong end of the stick.

I suppose the same as the approach for people who make false reports of other crimes, which aren't made for insurance purposes. What is the approach with them.

For me though, the harm / protection equation has to add up.

I guess tackling the media would be of a lot of help, all around. That would be my first step, in answer to your question.

nauticant · 21/01/2014 22:27

After hearing his [Chris Jefferies] side of what that was like, it's impossible not to care for the rights of the suspected or accused when named publicly. Of course, someone else is serving time for her murder, while he was completely exonerated. Sure he won damages, but money is never going to give him back what he lost.

But the damage done to him wasn't caused by the arrest itself but by certain parts of the media which decided use evidence-free innuendo to crucify him because it would shift newspapers. In the programme itself, he spoke very eloquently about what he went through but his criticisms were not about the fact he'd been arrested.

curlew · 21/01/2014 22:28

"By all means be a feminist. All decent people want equal rights for men and women but, no matter how strongly you feel, please try not to be a fanatical man-hating feminist."

I asked you before for an example. You ducked the question. Are you going to duck it again?

Madasabox · 21/01/2014 22:28

My understanding from my involvement in this is as follows:
a) rapists/sexual abusers/gropers/sexual harassers are almost universally serial offenders, hence the need to name them as it does encourage others to come forward.
b) the advantage of others coming forward is the opportunity it provides the CPS/police to develop a pattern of behaviour/details etc that corroborates other alleged victims stories
c) that is important because sexual crimes are by their very nature "he said, she said" crimes and hence more than one victim provides the necessary extra evidence required for conviction - for instance if an alleged groper likes as he does it to say "you are a naughty girl, aren't you" and the alleged victims have never met each other and all report this, then it provides considerable additional weight to the alleged victims accusation

I would also like to make the following points:
a) 3% of reported rapes are false accusations
b) only 12% of reported rapes result in conviction, adjusting that for the false claimants 12.37% of rapes therefore result in conviction.
c) but 58% of rape cases brought to trial result in conviction in 2008. This compares to 57% for all reportable crimes
d) what this means is that around a quarter of reported rapes progress to trial

So what does this tell us? Well it tells us that when cases come to trial there does not seem to be any greater presumption of innocence or guilt for sexual crimes than for any other form of crime, despite the uncorroborated nature of sex crimes. So what does this tell us?

It tells us possibly that when sexual crimes are brought to trial, it is normally because there is some other form of evidence other than just the alleged victim's word. To use an analogy, in a burglary, the police would not just pick random Joe Bloggs off the street and say "hey it was you that burgled that house over there", they would need some evidence ie forensic, catching them with the stolen goods, a witness statement, pattern of previous crime, confession etc. Ditto with a murder there would need to be more evidence other than just a motive.
It may tell us that the CPS only bring sexual crimes when they believe they have a good chance of conviction.

To contrast for instance with murder, c. 4% of murders are unsolved and the conviction rate for those accused of murder is 65%, so in essence c. 62% of reported murders result in conviction. This compares to 12.37% of reported rapes.

THIS IS DESPITE the victims having anonymity. So while I can see the inequality in rape victims having anonymity, my question would be: in what way would it help conviction rates to remove that anonymity? Or alternatively to grant anonymity to the alleged perpetrator. Kier Stammer is on record as saying that granting anonymity to alleged perpetrators would reduce the number of cases brought to trial.

NiceTabard · 21/01/2014 22:30

So you don't think it's "unfortunate" for DLT that he is in court, now?

Thinking that he is "unfortunate" is a foul opinion, BTW.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 22:31

If it's 'no shit sherlock' why is all your concern on this thread with those men falsely accused? Rather than the (vastly more numerous) victims?

BillyNotQuiteNoMates · 21/01/2014 22:35

It's not Sabrina if you actually READ my posts you would know that!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 22:36

It's fanatical man-hating feminists (like the person who described all men as 'diseased' on another similar thread

You've mentioned this twice now - can you link please?

BillyNotQuiteNoMates · 21/01/2014 22:40

Sabina you are confusing me! Who are you talking to? Because I'm assuming that the one post was for my attention, but I certainly didn't write that one!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 22:41

Sorry - post of 22.31 was to you, Billy.

I quoted Suzanne in my next post - that was to him.

HettiePetal · 21/01/2014 22:41

Given that it's hugely important that other victims, if there are any, come forward for cases like these, I don't think you can have blanket anonymity.

Protecting the falsely accused is impossible once it gets to court. But I think it should perhaps be illegal for the press to speculate about, or even name, anyone who is "helping the police with the inquiries" as happened in the case of Jo's landlord.

I do think trial by media is a much, much more serious problem than innocent people appearing in court. If the CPS decide to prosecute it's generally for a good reason. They are not infallible, of course, but I think they are more often right than wrong.

curlew · 21/01/2014 22:42

Suzanne made the reference. Waiting for a link. And for an example of the "fanatical man hating feminists" on this thread.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 22:43

Billy, you're quite welcome to point me in the direction of any posts you've made that are concerned with the rape victim - rather than the accused. I haven't noticed any.

prh47bridge · 21/01/2014 22:44

3% of the number of men accused is an incredibly small number

Depends what you mean by incredibly small. If we accept the 3% figure (and there are a range of studies which have come up with figures from 2% to 8%) that means the police in England and Wales receive around 500 false accusations of rape a year.

SuzanneUK · 21/01/2014 22:46

"try not to be a fanatical man-hating feminist."

I asked you before for an example. You ducked the question. Are you going to duck it again

Yes, I am - because pointing at specific individuals is a sure-fire way to attract a long and unpleasant fight.

And that's not why I'm here.

Cue: somebody say 'You could have fooled me!'.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 22:49

It didn't happen, Suzanne.

SinisterSal · 21/01/2014 22:50

Poor Suzanne Sad

Will nobody stand up for the innocent here

BillyNotQuiteNoMates · 21/01/2014 22:52

Sabrina Every post I have made, bar one, has referred to the victim, whoever they may be. And the exception was to state that I don't think it's ok to ignore any injustice regardless of the percentage chance. Now you find one where I was solely concerned with the accused.

prh47bridge · 21/01/2014 22:53

Largely agree with Madasabox, by the way. Just a couple of minor points:

  • The CPS only bring a case when they believe there is a good chance of a conviction regardless of the crime involved
  • A significant proportion of rape cases are brought where there is little or no corroborating evidence. Where it comes down to a dispute between the accused and the victim as to whether or not she consented corroboration on either side is unlikely barring injury
curlew · 21/01/2014 22:54

And what about a link to the thread with "all men are diseased" comment in it?

BillyNotQuiteNoMates · 21/01/2014 22:59

2am and I'm off to bed! Will catch up on the thread tomorrow

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 23:01

BillyNotQuiteNoMates Tue 21-Jan-14 21:07:40
3% of the number of men accused is an incredibly small number? Yes?
So the UK has a 3% population who are black, up to 2% of that 3% may be suffering from sickle cell. An incredibly small number? Yes? So we just ignore them?
My point is that each of these people has a life that is just as important as mine or yours and needs to be seen as an individual, not as an "incredibly small number".
Do I think we should be protecting guilty people, no, of course not, and neither does anyone else. However, trial by media is becoming the norm and it needs to stop!"

This - you want the accused granted anonymity -you've said so- even though the reasons why this would be a very bad thing for the victims have been pointed out to you numerous times on the thread.

SuzanneUK · 21/01/2014 23:01

Isn't it amazing that people who are at such pains to show unlimited sympathy to real-world victims of abuse are often the first to join forces in a mob to bully and berate and browbeat most mercilessly anyone who annoys them on a chat forum?

Cue: someone accuse me of 'asking for it'.

SinisterSal · 21/01/2014 23:05

Don't be a fucking eejit and equate someone calling you on your misogynist bullshit with being actually physically abused in RL

Says it all that you'd make a disgusting comment like that

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/01/2014 23:05

I find it interesting that you have so many of your posts deleted for personal attacks, suzanne.