to think if the letter says a voluntary contribution of £x then you don't HAVE to pay

[PMDD]

I have 3 children at the same primary school. Since coming back to school in January the school have asked me for a VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTION of £14 for DD, £7.50 for DS1 and £5.00 for DS2 (school trips linked to their term topic). They have also asked for £1 for each child for 'arts week' and they have asked for £1 for each child for this Friday's mufti, which is followed by the school valentine disco of £2.50 per child.

That is £40!!!!

Other than mufti and the school disco, which they children don't have to do (although they will be very left out if they come in school uniform), the payment is voluntary. So would I be unreasonable to say that I will give them £5 per child for all the school activities.

I would like to add that my DS1 (year 6) and DS2 (year 4) are both going on school trips in May which cost £350 and £280 respectively, which I am paying £50 a month for since Sept last year!

It IS humiliating to have to admit to the finance officer at your DC's Seco dairy that you can't afford the full cost of a trip because the cost has more than doubled since your older DD went, and you misjudged the budget needed to pay for it. Worst thing I've ever had to do. Felt like being in the Victorian times and holding my cap out, waiting for a penny.

But I did it, because I didn't want DS1 to miss out.

Louise, there again, you decide where you want your responsibilities to end. (Just short of eating into your holiday fund, is that where they stop ?)
If other parents decided not to fund the cooking ingredients you refer to, wouldn't it be a shame for your child to miss out because the activity couldn't run with out sufficient contributions ?

I could have "opted out" of paying the "voluntary" contribution however jacks365 because I'd perhaps assessed the request and decided my child would get very little out of it and then maybe spent the money on a new pair of goggles which would benefit them more (to use Louise's methodology of considering only my child's needs/benefits).

I'm wasting my time trying to get the real point across. Just as it would not be worthwhile trying it with other parents who opt out, despite being able to afford the contribution, and then manage to afford a family holiday in Eqypt/Florida (in term time to save money naturally) and who are indignant at the thought of a fine for disrupting their child's learning.

P.S. Don't think the teachers don't have a pretty good idea of which parents opt out of voluntary contributions "because they know their rights" and those who struggle to meet the request.

Loving the Seco dairy

Yes there are times when you have to do it, but admitting poverty to the school secretary really is one of the hardest things you can do. You have to prove that you are in receipt of benefits and then wait whilst they work out how much they can give you towards the cost of any trip. It's not a good feeling at all. I think I'd rather go without food than have to go through that again.

Ah, but Louise, surely cooking ingredients falls under the same category of 'determining the best use of your money'? How dare the school tell you what your DC are going to cook, and what ingredients they need to do so? And PE kit and uniform, school makes you pay for those too!

What I find upsetting about this thread is the posters who have said they feel humiliated and embarrassed admitting they struggle to fund trips.

I have never ever known any member of staff that's worked in a school where I have look down on any family that's finding it difficult to afford trips and I'm very sorry that some of you have felt that.

I think in regards to the op, she is giving the impression that she could pay but doesn't see why she should rather than genuinely can't. That might not be the impression she intended to convey though.

If you are genuinely struggling I would hope the school would be trying to support you to the best of their ability. I've known parents to pay £1 a week as that's all they can afford and the child has attended all trips with the schools blessing. I would hope that would be the case everywhere.

little, who are you to say that financing school trips is a better priority than what the parents have chosen to finance (be that a family holiday or rainbows or anything else). You are making a choice, the same as me and it comes down to what you value as opposed to what I value.

Taxation is how we fulfil our social responsibility to ensure that everyone receives the same basics. But the rest of my money is mine, to spend on things that I feel will benefit my family. I will not see that as wrong or consider it my job to pay for things I don't want just because someone else does want it.

As for cooking ingredients/PE kits - those activities are valuable to me, so I will pay for them.

Schools are asking for more and more - felt like I had to visit the cashpoint before taking my three kids to school in the run up to Xmas - we had social events, raffles, collections for teachers, donations fir Xmas parties...it just went on and on.

It's the breezy 'oh everyone's just giving a fiver,' ie: £15 for me...

OP, you haven't answered the question about whether you would qualify for free school meals so that your dc would also qualify for the pupil premium. If you haven't looked into this, I suggest you do so immediately.

I think that parents with a lot of money will just pay whatever the school asks for, because it is no problem for them to do so.

The people who opt out of some things, will be people who have a limited budget and have to make choices as to what they consider to be the best use of money for their children. I won't hand over that choice to the school. I don't want my child missing something I consider important in order to pay for something I don't.

I think there are very few parents who opt out of paying for everything.

Loathe the argument that parents should continuously pay £5 here, £10 there because school trips are enriching and if not enough people pay the trip is cancelled so everyone misses out - it's completely against the ethos of school in the first place! Having textbooks/gym equipment/playground etc is enriching too but the school is expected to find the money for it themselves out of the taxes we/most people pay which go towards education. And then the school should have to 'cut their cloth' just like parents have to - if they can't afford to pay for it then it generally shouldn't happen. (I say generally because I think there is call for offering few and far between 'events' or 'trips' that are completely voluntary, such as a ski trip with only enough spaces for a handful of the class to go, not the majority - and if too many want to go they could organise another trip).

If the school feel they need to put on trips/activities to meet the curriculum or give the children extra experiences they might not have, they ought to pay for it out of their budget or raise extra money - exactly as a parent has to. My dd's school is a good case in point, many low income working families (I only mention working because it means a low percentage of FSM so not much pupil premium to cover trips etc) and any trips are carefully thought out and using the school's 'networking power' rather than paying another company through the nose. The latest trip was to a museum with a research thingy going on (deliberately vague not to out myself!) and the school had arranged with the researchers to organise a day of activities based around this subject and all the school had to cover was the coach to get them there and back - which they asked each family for the grand total of £1 towards (and if you even couldn't afford that you could pay another time). They covered the rest out of the quite substantial amounts raised by the PTA, which is then truly voluntary contributions as no-one has to turn up and spend at the book sale/quiz night etc.

Surely this is the way it should be - the school budgets for what they can and can't afford to provide and is free to raise more money if it can without putting pressure on struggling parents? And if it can't raise the money the kids miss out, which sounds tough but kids miss out all the time - a trip into space would be enormously educational but for 99.9999% of kids it's never going to happen but that's ok. The kids with well-off parents can access experiences elsewhere and the kids with poorer parents don't lose out from the additional pressure of finding money that isn't there.

little purple my point is you don't have a choice. Yes schools are dictating to a certain degree where parents spend their money. I already pay for education through the tax system and that is supposed to mean free entitlement but that isn't the case any more. Things like school swimming are now having to ask for a voluntary donation because the schools are not being provided with sufficient funds to cover curricular needs anymore and that is a disgrace. Why should parents at school A have to pay for swimming when parents at school B don't. The only reason school A can't walk to the swimming baths is because the council closed their local one down. They used to walk. Schools should not charge to deliver the curriculum, they shouldn't need to but don't blame parents who feel they can't do anymore blame the government for cutting budgets.

I think everyones being bit harsh on op.

im sure op dident plan to be single mum on low income with 3kids.

sometimes life does not always go as planned.

it sounds like the op has been responsible and is budgeting for the residential trip.

money is finate true so does not matter if have 1 or 6 if she doesnt have money spare or means her kids going hungry or missing valuable activity thats community related like cubs.

I must have missed word volunary on our letters.

it says possibly suggested cost then at end it says we are an inclusive school if anyone has any trouble please see head.

None of parents would know whos paid whos not.
Theres only one person in office who we call school mummy shes wonder woman and fab would never look down on people.

dd only been there just over year.

last year she has 3trips.

2were entire school ones which pta subside the winter one is panto at city theatre and summer one was city zoo both were £5 each, plenty notice given as happen every year as they put it on calender on school website.
That includes admission, coach and snack have no idea true cost reckon £15 so pta subside £10 each child *130kids approx r -year 6 its £1300! yikes sounds a lot.

But im so greatful they do and means everyone pays and all kids go no poor child left behind.

The charity days again well thourght out they have penny trails and cake sales are always well priced. some non uniforms are items for tombola not actual cash.

The school allow supermarket branded uniform the majority of school would say afflunet but not flashy and the school manges really well be sisnitive.

They went on 2trips local park which was walkable.

its such contrast to old school after money all time they did class trips curriculum bases £15 quid see castles, £8 for workshops outside providers there was huge fuss over one event escapes me what think was some sort of puppet show/drama/play where was huge shortfall and head came cap in hand pta asking pta to fund it after event was same with the logo t shirts for the local sports olympics.
Its true budgest being cut used to et all sorts daft requests the pta remit when voting and deciding is

would it benefit the child
is it something school should really be providing.

they never subsidised trips had over 300kids.
low fsm so guess not huge pupil premuim.
most of pta were well off and suggested expensive nights out, wated school do more as they could afford to pay more not sensitive to fact others couldent felt like they wanted money all the time.
The mums who arranged teachers collection were so bitchy about who gave what as one lady gave 50p and they slagged her off.
The rceptionsists not most lovley people you ever wish to meet many were parents at school.

I can see why people would rather not claim to be hard us.
when oh was out work unexpextedly for 3weeks we dident do free school meals or milk vouchers and we back on feet but are very careful with budegting only have 1 at school right now and only do school dinners twice a week.

I think when costs are huge, not much notice given and fact several things at once in jan and people guilt tripping op about maybe other wealthier kids will miss out if the poor people dont pay is pretty horrid,.
Sometimes can budget until cows come home then have unexpected cost come up car,something breaks down, moving house.

I do have freind whos kids go deprived undersubscribed primary high fsm and so much is free or cheap breckfast clubs only £1 per day!
I was shocked when looked round specialist sports caches all for free was part academy but still lot of lefier middleclass schools provide no free stuff and can be insensitive to people with vastly different budgets.

louise agree should pick and choose its whats called opportunity cost we covered it business studies you forgo one thing pay for another in budgeting everyone has different budget and we all have to make choices with

heating, housing and food, clothing coming first

i decide mostly packed lunches over school dinners save some money and be comprimise.

Don't get me wrong jacks365. I totally acknowledge that you are right about it being compulsory attendance (for a very good reason I might add).

The payment for it however was "voluntary". I was just using Louise's methodology of how some of us don't just assess the likely benefit to our own child. I could opt out of paying safe in the knowledge that my child would still get the swimming lessons. Too many parents knew this and took advantage IMHO. (Some parents at our school like everyone to know how clever they are at getting round having to pay for stuff)

Swimming is an odd one round here as all the pools are in the city centre so the poorest catchment area schools actually don't need to charge much as they can walk. The leafier areas and surrounding village schools have to bus the dc there and back so it costs much more.

This may have been mentioned - sorry , if so.
The way ds3's primary school puts it is that the contributions are voluntary, therefore no child will be excluded from a trip for not paying, however, if there is not enough money overall to cover the costs, then the trip will be cancelled.

Not sure how this would ever work, unless some altruistic parents paid over the odds.

Parents at school A don't have to pay for swimming. The school is still required to provide it out of their budget just as they are required to provide maths and English tuition. But the school has neither moral nor legal rights to charge parents for delivering the curriculum. And parents who have different values are entitled to put other things first. If all these charges that so many people are saying are an obligation were actually a requirement they would amount to a poll tax on children made by an undemocratic, unaccountable body (the school).

Allowing educational school trips to be funded through the parent body instead of through general taxation is part of what makes schools with wealthier intakes "better" than those with less well off parents. Even when less well off parents stretch to make school trip payments that money comes out of their family budget and impoverishes the family life (the OP, for instance, is talking about paying for a school trip instead of cubs - that isn't a decision her child's school should be forcing on her). Schooling needs to be adequately funded through taxation, not through a stealth poll-tax on children extracted by the school.

We are the reverse here and the wealthy area kept their swimming pool and the poorer area lost, simply down to usage. It may be worth pointing out that I have always paid for trips and always will however that doesn't mean I feel the system is right or fair. I do feel some schools put excessive pressure on parents to pay for things they shouldn't have to for example I know my friend had to pay a lot of the cost of the year 6 residential but according to a link someone posted she didn't need to. What annoys me is schools basically strong arming parents for things that should be coming out of school budgets and relying on parents not knowing better for example fsm not paying for residentials. There is another thread running where the school is obviously trying to embarrass parents into paying and that is so so wrong.

The school heavily subsidising a trip might work well in a small school with 130 pupils, but when you have an infants/nursery and juniors (next door but separate buildings) with 420 pupils, that gets somewhat more difficult. It's a large school - and the juniors will have an extra 4 classes next September, bringing the total pupils up to 540 pupils.

Slight difference on ability to subsidise trips...if it was subsidised by £1,300 for a school with 130 pupils, that would be £4,200 currently at DS2's school, £5,400 next year...

No PTA in an area with 35% FSM's, plus the majority of the rest just not qualifying for them, is going to raise that amount of money to subsidise a trip.

I was trying, poorly, to make the same point as Emmeline.

Whilst this school has a high proportion of pupils on FSM's, they are choosing as a school to use those funds to create an IT suite (they don't currently have one) to enable the pupils to get more time on a computer.

This DOES benefit the DC's on FSM's, as they will be allowed to use them for homework after school - which they can't currently do, as the few computers they do have are in their library in a very cramped space - and half the books are on trolleys in hallways because of this.

It does mean that they aren't able to subsidise trips at the Primary though.

And as the area isn't wealthy, it is just not possible for the new PTA to raise that much.

For comparison : DS2's old school, very MC school, Christmas fair, PTA raised £1,560.

DS2's new school, poorer area, Christmas fair, raised £305.

See the difference??!!

The schools have the same number of pupils currently, too.

Our PTA may put a donation towards the trip if the class teacher asks (they get a certain amount per class each term to use for extras) but dont subsidise individual pupiles as PTA funds should benefit all not one or two.

Its a matter of priorities as Couthy says. Looking at the OP's recent posts, both her and DH work and have purchased luxuries like a puppy and posh eye cream very recently. To the expect the school to take money from its budget as she doesnt want to pay for trips yet expect places is very cheeky.

It's not cheeky to send you children to a state school and expect them to be included in the school day and taught the whole curriculum without being billed - whatever your income or shopping preferences. It would be a bit cheeky if she was then up in arms if the trip was cancelled.

People who think others should be coerced into the same spending choices as they have should use the ballot box, not an unelected, unaccountable institution.

I'm appalled that anyone knows which parents contribute and which don't - that's a dreadful breach of privacy.

OP - if you have 3 children at primary, you clearly have some experience of what you're going to be asked for fork out for. I would hate schools to stop school trips on the basis that those that can afford to pay refuse to.

That's just shooting yourself in the foot (or possibly your child's foot!)

I think if you can pay you should but I hate to think of kids being excluded if their parents can't or won't pay. Regarding your friend, I approached the head of our school saying I would be happy to donate for a child to go on the residential if their parents couldn't pay. The head said it wasn't a problem and the school had money set aside for this so that no one would be excluded due to cost. Maybe other schools have the same policy.

Actually, I'm with Op on this one.
Dh completely disagrees with me, so there you go !!

It seems to have been endless mufti's, cake sales, this , that. mufti again. £2, £1, £2, £2 £2. for both children £20. This year alone.
Ds1 has a trip later this year. He doesn't want to go. £200. I'm glad.
but we've had 3 school trips/. At very short notice £20, £5 & £15

Just seems like a lot.