To be concerned about this girl

[SEmyarse]

Over summer last year dd2 (7) made friends with a girl who it turns out lived round in the next road. She is 8, but a summer birthday so 2 years ahead at school.

They got on great, and I really liked the mum. It became apparent quite quickly though that she is very overenthusiastic about the friendship, and would try and organise the girls to play together every day, and would try and pop in herself and stay for quite a while chatting. This was fine sometimes, and I enjoyed her company, but it was too much for me. I work full time so she would more often arrive while dh was here and hang around him chatting for an hour or more while he was trying to do stuff. He said it made him feel uncomfortable, but it was quite difficult to reign in, especially when we had a childcare crisis and she looked after both dds while we were both at work, which we were very grateful for. The only issue I have with her care is that she seems to massively overfeed them.

I know she's from a troubled background, which I haven't delved into, but during conversations she's mentioned growing up in care, having ADHD and having a support worker. The girl has also mentioned the support worker, and says it's because their house is too messy. I have to admit to being intrigued about her being in care because she seems extremely close to her parents, but I've not asked the reasons and it could be anything.

Over time her beautifully behaved daughter started behaving worse when at our house. i figured she just felt more comfortable with us at first, so she would be cheeky etc, but gradually escalated to her deliberately breaking things. She also got more and more clingy to dh, wanting to hug him all the time, which again he felt uncomfortable with.

We tried to step back a bit, because it was all getting too much. And then her daughter got ill anyway so we didn't see her as much. I was surprised to discover that she ended up in hospital with what had started as a stomach bug since she seems a very robust child. After the hospital trip we tried to maintain occasional contact, but it quickly escalated and she would turn up at our door up to 3 times a day. Dh also ended up being roped into various transport arrangements since she doesn't drive, and he's not very good at saying no.

Again, we tried to gently reduce things, again the daughter was ill, dh drove them to various appointments and the chemist's to get antibiotics, and then she asked us to have her that evening, and asked me to administer the ABs. She told me to give double the dosage written on the bottle, which I wasn't happy to do. I read the leaflet inside, which did say that sometimes double doses could be given if directed by a doctor, but it didn't say that on the bottle so I only gave her one, and mum said she'd give her another when she got back.

There's also been a bit of a to-do over opticians. She kept going on and on about dd2's glasses, how great she looked in them. And then suddenly her daughter needed glasses, and help with lifts to an optician's in a very awkward place. And the glasses repeatedly got broken, and tales of it costing a fortune to mend so now she's not wearing glasses again.

Just before christmas dh had the girls again, and they were being a pain in the neck so he told them to go and play in the bedroom. He heard a lot of noise but thought they were just playing. 20 mins later he went upstairs to find dd2 on her bed drawing and the other girl completely trashing everything, deliberately snapping and jumping on stuff. So he took her home and told her mum that BOTH girls had been naughty.

That was the last we saw of them. We're more than happy for the girls to play together sometimes, but don't want to instigate contact since it always gets out of control.

I bumped into the grandmother who works in co-op (who I didn't recognise, but dd2 did) who said that the girl had been in hospital again over christmas. I asked another neighbour who knows them, who said they'd heard she was in for a 'swollen throat', but was home now.

Then another lady who used to be friends with them sought me out at school to ask if we'd fallen out with her since she'd heard that the girl was in hospital again. She said she knows from experience that this means that she's fallen out with someone again. i explained what had happened and she related almost exactly the same kind of things had happened to her, and always culminated in the daughter being seriously ill. She said 'next thing, you'll hear that she's pregnant. She's been pregnant and miscarried 10 times since I've known her, and always after a drama.' I went home and dh walked in the door and said 'You'll never guess what! I've just seen someone in the village, who told me B is pregnant'.

So her behaviour definitely seems to follow a pattern. and the daughter still isn't back at school over 2 weeks after coming out of hospital (not long I know, but I'm confused by all the frequent hospital visits.) Does all this stuff sound worrying? Do I need to do something? I'm just worried that every time there's a drama the girl ends up in hospital. That's too coincidental right?

I don't know about this woman and her dd but it does sound like you should not be leaving your kids in her care.

I would report your concerns directly to the head teacher of the school both girls attend. They have info on her (which clearly they will not share with you) and the extra pieces of info you give will enable the head to make a decision as to whether to involve social services. That way you have done your best for the little girl without going directly to SS because that is a tough decision to make - school will be better placed (and obliged) to make the decision. Don't go to the class teacher, must be the head and in confidence.

I really dislike the head, and found her utterly useless when supposedly providing support for my children when they lost their dad. To the point of actually being damaging.

But I really like and respect the deputy who has done wonders helping dd1 with her sn over the years, so I'll probably see her.

The person you NEED to talk to is the CP lead - irrespective of your personal feelings. Generally that is delegated to the deputy head, but this isn't about you, so if it is the Head, then you will have to deal with it.

I don't have any faith that the head will do anything though, so that seems pointless.

drome - but the involvement of caseworkers is something the mother has said - she may be lying - and if the op's concerns are real then lying would not be out of character for someone with that disorder.

also - why assume that overworked hospitals are on the case? If they were there wouldn't have been previous cases of mbp.

many abused children are at school and nothing is done - including some v high profile cases with v tragic conclusions - and when those cases are reported often hospitals have also been involved along the way and not picked up abuse - so why assume that systems that have already failed children have definitely picked up this one?

Op - call ss - let them deal in a professional capacity

The daughter is part of a 2 person family. If her mother is subject to local gossip and unnecessary reporting to SS or school, she will be hugely stressed and feel alienated / isolated from the local community. This can only have a bad affect on the family unit, including the daughter. The mother may be so upset by what has happened that she moves the daughter to a new school or relocates, which would be another disruption to the daughter. Unnecessary reporting to SS does huge damage to families, and this family already has a support worker, so is very much on the radar. And believe it or not hospitals are very well aware of Munchausen's by Proxy (a much rarer condition than people tend to think, with a history of many false accusations).

You need to talk to someone ..... Whether it is head teacher / deputy or SS. I am not for a second suggesting the mother has MBPS, but people do have unusual illness,s. DH mother ( not happy to call her MIL as I have never met her ) had bad issues with alcohol, was physically and emotionally abusive, and he has had LOTS of operations as a child .....

I would like to believe that it is harder now for people with MBPS to get away undetected, but as with the high profile cases of child abuse recently , the parents have been very convincing.

YANBU to be concerned but I wouldn't discuss it further with any neighbours. Speak to someone who can help this child.

The Head or CP lead is duty bound to collect evidence and inform SS.

Dromedary - I think you need to think about the greater implication of potential abuse of a child happening in this family. Any alienation/isolation/embarrassment of the mother is irrelevant.

It doesn't seem right to just assume that the support workers are on to it. How many times do we hear of people turning away because they thought someone else would sort things? There may be nothing happening at all, but somehow her daughter is ill enough to need hospital admission every time her mum has a drama

I have not read any further than this! Everyone else in Baby Ps case thought someone else was dealing with it! It is not ok to assume that because one person has worked it out, everyone else has too! You do need to report your concerns!

As someone who works within the sector, may I suggest you make a referral to SS as the child's attendance at hospital & frequent illness as well as the deteriorating behavior raise some concerns. Sometimes children act out when things are not going well at home. Please do not assume professionals know what is happening. Sometimes neglectful parents can be manipulative in explaining away concerns about their child. I hope all goes well.

drome - sounds like you are projecting a personal experience.

of course I know hospitals are aware of mbp but I equally know that they are v pushed hence previous cases of mbp getting out of hand and other abuses going unnoticed - dots are not always joined up.

what if the mother is stressed by it ? But equally what if the daughter is physically or mentally abused? None of us know - there are professionals better placed to make that decision - and you can't assume that the "caseworker" is not a fabrication and you can't assume that the hospital has checked it all out and all is good.

I'm not saying that you should never contact SS. But people on this Forum (and this thread) often treat doing so lightly. It is in fact a very big deal to the family (not just the parent) that is reported, and can have a very damaging impact, even if SS decides that all is ok. Often the person who reports simply has a different method of childcare, and can't take on board that other people do things very differently.
I agree that in this instance the pattern seems worrying, though there may be nothing to it and it is likely that Munchausen's by Proxy would have been picked up - it's hardly an unpublicised medical condition, despite being very rare.
NB my daughter has also been in hospital a couple of times with what turned out to be stomach bugs, but the hospital initially thought might be appendicitis. It's quite common.