To be concerned about this girl

[SEmyarse]

Over summer last year dd2 (7) made friends with a girl who it turns out lived round in the next road. She is 8, but a summer birthday so 2 years ahead at school.

They got on great, and I really liked the mum. It became apparent quite quickly though that she is very overenthusiastic about the friendship, and would try and organise the girls to play together every day, and would try and pop in herself and stay for quite a while chatting. This was fine sometimes, and I enjoyed her company, but it was too much for me. I work full time so she would more often arrive while dh was here and hang around him chatting for an hour or more while he was trying to do stuff. He said it made him feel uncomfortable, but it was quite difficult to reign in, especially when we had a childcare crisis and she looked after both dds while we were both at work, which we were very grateful for. The only issue I have with her care is that she seems to massively overfeed them.

I know she's from a troubled background, which I haven't delved into, but during conversations she's mentioned growing up in care, having ADHD and having a support worker. The girl has also mentioned the support worker, and says it's because their house is too messy. I have to admit to being intrigued about her being in care because she seems extremely close to her parents, but I've not asked the reasons and it could be anything.

Over time her beautifully behaved daughter started behaving worse when at our house. i figured she just felt more comfortable with us at first, so she would be cheeky etc, but gradually escalated to her deliberately breaking things. She also got more and more clingy to dh, wanting to hug him all the time, which again he felt uncomfortable with.

We tried to step back a bit, because it was all getting too much. And then her daughter got ill anyway so we didn't see her as much. I was surprised to discover that she ended up in hospital with what had started as a stomach bug since she seems a very robust child. After the hospital trip we tried to maintain occasional contact, but it quickly escalated and she would turn up at our door up to 3 times a day. Dh also ended up being roped into various transport arrangements since she doesn't drive, and he's not very good at saying no.

Again, we tried to gently reduce things, again the daughter was ill, dh drove them to various appointments and the chemist's to get antibiotics, and then she asked us to have her that evening, and asked me to administer the ABs. She told me to give double the dosage written on the bottle, which I wasn't happy to do. I read the leaflet inside, which did say that sometimes double doses could be given if directed by a doctor, but it didn't say that on the bottle so I only gave her one, and mum said she'd give her another when she got back.

There's also been a bit of a to-do over opticians. She kept going on and on about dd2's glasses, how great she looked in them. And then suddenly her daughter needed glasses, and help with lifts to an optician's in a very awkward place. And the glasses repeatedly got broken, and tales of it costing a fortune to mend so now she's not wearing glasses again.

Just before christmas dh had the girls again, and they were being a pain in the neck so he told them to go and play in the bedroom. He heard a lot of noise but thought they were just playing. 20 mins later he went upstairs to find dd2 on her bed drawing and the other girl completely trashing everything, deliberately snapping and jumping on stuff. So he took her home and told her mum that BOTH girls had been naughty.

That was the last we saw of them. We're more than happy for the girls to play together sometimes, but don't want to instigate contact since it always gets out of control.

I bumped into the grandmother who works in co-op (who I didn't recognise, but dd2 did) who said that the girl had been in hospital again over christmas. I asked another neighbour who knows them, who said they'd heard she was in for a 'swollen throat', but was home now.

Then another lady who used to be friends with them sought me out at school to ask if we'd fallen out with her since she'd heard that the girl was in hospital again. She said she knows from experience that this means that she's fallen out with someone again. i explained what had happened and she related almost exactly the same kind of things had happened to her, and always culminated in the daughter being seriously ill. She said 'next thing, you'll hear that she's pregnant. She's been pregnant and miscarried 10 times since I've known her, and always after a drama.' I went home and dh walked in the door and said 'You'll never guess what! I've just seen someone in the village, who told me B is pregnant'.

So her behaviour definitely seems to follow a pattern. and the daughter still isn't back at school over 2 weeks after coming out of hospital (not long I know, but I'm confused by all the frequent hospital visits.) Does all this stuff sound worrying? Do I need to do something? I'm just worried that every time there's a drama the girl ends up in hospital. That's too coincidental right?

Id raise it with the school, not get involved in gossip, and leave it at that.

Im sure people will / are saying "if you report to SS and there is nothing to worry about then no harm done" and off they pop carrying on with their day, but those will be people who have never had to experience false reports of concern, fortunately for them.

By false reports I dont necessarily mean actual false reports, unfounded reports I probably should have said.......or you know what I mean

She's not been at school again today according to dd2. Her class teacher is the only one in the school I don't know since she's new, so I don't want to track her down. But I've had kids in that school for a number of years now, I'll try and contact one of the ones I know better I think, for a little chat. Of course they will be aware of her absences but if I give them a heads-up that they always seem to follow dramas then maybe they'll keep a closer eye and contact the family support worker herself.

I think that's a good idea, but I'd also ask the teacher to confirm with you that they've done something about it - when they've done something about it iyswim. Don't assume that because you've passed on a concern that it's been escalated - get confirmation (of course, they don't have to tell you what they've done, just that they've done something). It might put your mind at ease somewhat.

The hospital may be investigating symptoms. What they don't know - but you do - is that the mother is definitely doubling the medicine. That's the bit that worries me. She may be giving her other things for all we know.

Raise it as a concern and say that it may be without foundation, however you feel you need to inform them as you are worried for the child. Relate the information you have in a neutral tone. You have then done your bit and it is up to the authorities as to whether they follow it up. Your conscience will then be clear. How will you feel if you do nothing and then have cause to regret it.

There was a girl in my school year who I started feeling concerned about when she was about 11. She looked ill and would often have to go home early from sleepovers having been sick or something. Then she got horrific blisters from a short episode in bright sunlight.

Anyway, she died at 16, they found a brain tumor at the opticians, but was inoperable.

I think her parents were very quiet people, I never really met them. I wish someone else could have felt sooner that it wasn't right.

I'm not sure if you are thinking this girls problems are more based in psychological grounds. There's no harm IMO in bringing up concerns about any child. But the fact that the hospital is already involved, I think they will be alert to looking for issues already.

I think talking to a teacher you know is a good idea. Clarify what you are concerned about in your own mind, or even write it down. Be sure to just tell them what you know and not put any conclusions on it, except to say that it seems unusual and that is why you are concerned. I once told someone in the school about an odd incident that happened with one of the children and it turned out they were keeping a log of such reports for SS as they already had concerns about the child.

As the woman herself was brought up in care and they have a 'support worker' then social services may already be aware of or involved with the family.

I think your concerns sound very reasonable, something doesn't sound right & another woman who knows the family has commented on the frequent hospital visits. If you contact social services then they won't just swoop in and remove the daughter but they may decide the other needs more support. Or you could be wrong and it will come to nothing. That's better than the risk that you are right & do nothing.

I think you need to speak to someone about this - correct me if I have missed something in the thread - but how do you know the child really has been in hospital & not just kept at home by her mother?

I knew someone very like how you describe... Clingy, constant drama, constant requests for help, children mysteriously hospitalised when she wanted drama.

I was equally suspicious of her and as it turned out I was right, her children were removed and are now happy and settled with their father. I wish I'd listened to my gut and reported her now, it might have sped up her children being taken to safety

How about speaking to the Mother first, before reporting her or airing any concerns? You don't know her complete background, so I'd be reluctant to involve authorities until you've had a conversation with her. Yes, she may not tell the truth, but most of us can judge people's character quite accurately. By addressing it she may actually open up and confide in you. It's a tough call, but you'd never forgive yourself if it all blew up in your face. I'm speaking from experience of being on the receiving end of malicious unfounded village gossip, which made me suicidal.

if you are really worried about this little girl report it dont waste time dithering and talking to random women in the street I am only being honest if anybody is worried about a childs immediate welfare dont listen to gossip report it did the other woman report anything suspicious or not, i doubt it, too many children are harmed because people talk about things and whisper and dither if you are worried report them this child might have an illness or her mother maybe harming her,

Hi op.

On reading this my first thought was also Fabricated/Induced Illness Syndrome ( new, fancy (faddy) name for Muchausen by Proxy). I have worked with cases of this.

I absolutely do not think you're gossiping, but I would urge you to speak to Children's Social Care. Yes, they are probably (hopefully!) aware of this little girl, and if this is the case your information will still be useful in assisting them get the whole picture, they've probably only had information from the professionals involved and you could be able to fill some gaps for them.

If they are not aware, you could stop another Victoria Climbie/Baby P situation.

Either way you could help to make this little girl's life a whole lot better.

I don't think YABU to be worried either OP. If the little girl is in hospital as much as she seems to be then this may have alerted Social services (although I don't know how this works to be honest). But it does sound as if something troubling is going on.
I'm sure Munchausens by proxy isn't as rare as you might expect and it does sound a bit like it.
But the only important question is what should/could you do OP. Is it worth asking school if the dd of this mum is ok and alerting that way? Very tricky.

You have to trust your instinct - if it feels like something is wrong, then there might well be something wrong.

The best people to talk to would be the school. one of the senior leadership team will be the child protection lead. It is possible that they already have notes on this child - from a variety of sources within the school and know the red flags to look for.

As we've seen too many times, hindsight is 20:20.

YANBU. All those that say the hospital is "probably" aware, or the school is "probably" aware - one of the reasons for the terrible failure of our communities to help children such as that poor little Daniel Pelka, or little Baby P, or Victoria Climbie was that lots of different people/agencies/organisations saw lots of different things, and nobody talked to each other, and everybody minded their own business and didn't want 'to get involved', and didn't want to upset the parents etc etc.

If you think something is up, then report it. Then make sure that it's followed up. If all is well and good, then great. But if not, then just maybe you've stopped something awful happening like in the cases I've mentioned above.

Well done for caring and for noticing the pattern.

And just to add, that pattern wouldn't have been picked up if two people hadn't been 'gossiping', ladies.

Yes indeed, I would not have noticed especially, had this lady not come and made a point of talking to me. I'd thought it was odd that she seemed ill so often totally out of the blue, but I hadn't really thought about how it ties in with everything else that happens until she detailed loads of stuff that she had been drawn into which was identical to our experience.

And no, I don't know for certain that she's been in hospital, but this last time, it's the grandmother that told me, so either she has been told this, she is in on this, or she has actually been in hospital. She was working on the till in co-op at the time, so it wasn't a lengthy conversation, but one that she was happy to have in front of other people.

Just to clear up a couple of things. She's not without support. The girl's father has her EOW, although I remember mentioning something about him having a new girlfriend and them going to Egypt so couldn't have her recently. The mum has a boyfriend who she says doesn't live there, but he always seems to be there so I'm not sure of the truth of that. He is quite young, but seems lovely. Also, people keep mentioning our village as if we're out in the sticks. Actually, it's a massive village, big enough for 4 banks, a doctors surgery, tescos and co-op, library, opticians, dentist, 3 churches, 3 chemists, and good (daytime) bus service. So she's not isolated in that way, she seems to manage to make appointments in other inconvenient places though so she needs lifts.

I hope you've changed details here SEmyarse there's alot of identifiable information on here (and yes I know it's anonymous but read through in detail. It's quite specific)

Good Luck though.

"How about speaking to the Mother first, before reporting her or airing any concerns? "

Never speak to a parent, it puts the child at risk.

MBP is quite rare, but personality disorders that could cause similar events, aren't.

I would think that the family is already under CP or CIN, with having a FSW involved.

OP I would say that the school is the way forward, if you do not know where the FSW is based, they are usually in Children Centers, LA Focus Centers or Children Services Buildings.

My thought is that rather being in hospital, the Mum could have MH issues and the child is going into respite Foster Care, tbh.

There is such a stigma to this that many parents invent other happenings.

The school will be well aware of the family, they will be informed of the FS and the plan.

They will pass on what you have to say.

"more than likely it wont' result in her losing her daughter"
Imagine someone saying this about you and your daughter, NurseRoscoe.
The family already has a support worker, OP said, so SS are aware of issues. Hospitals are also on the hyper alert these days, as are schools. Staff are trained in these issues. Not sure the family needs to be shopped by one of their very few friends, which wil make them feel even more alienated from their neighbours.

Birdsgottafly - agree. Have seen cases in the practice where someone, who might mean well, talks to the parent, only for the parent to disappear so no-one can keep an eye on their child and, more importantly, the family cannot get the help they need.

Do what you need to do SEmayse, YANBU only concerned for a child. Its a shame a lot of posters would ignore this frankly very strange behavior.

Dromedary - the welfare of the child is the most important factor to take into account rather than her mother feeling alienated from her neighbours.

Dromedary, thank you for that post.

When DD had to spend a lot of time in hospital during her first years at school I really resented having to disclose her personal medical information to "interested" people at the school gates.