to be pissed off that they seem to have lots more disposable cash than me?

[JRmumma]

Just to be clear, in not 'benefits bashing' but a friend of mine who chose not to return to work after DC3 as she worked out that tax credits and housing benefit would make her family 'no worse off', seems to have lots more money than me.

To explain my situation, i have 1DC and am on mat leave at present. When i go back to work, we will have less money than we do at the moment after work travel costs and childcare is paid for. I have to go back full time to enable us to survive even though i didn't want to, but accept that children are expensive and needs must. We are also having to seriously cut back on the few luxuries that we currently have (memberships/subscriptions).

Ive just discovered that my friend has just booked her second holiday for this year. Without saying where it is for fear of outing myself, its a v expensive holiday for her and hubby. The other holiday is a European all inclusive jobby for the whole family. All 3 DC also had expensive electronics for Xmas.

This really fucks me off. Where am i going wrong? If they have enough money for exotic holidays and all the latest mod cons, why are they receiving tax credits and housing benefit? And why oh why will the only holiday i get this year be a £9.50 sun holiday if both me and DH work full time and claim nothing?

High mortgage, dh work travel costs, four dcs

Thank you.

'I would say that it would be better for children/teenagers in school to have a much more in depth view of finances, budgeting, and general financial planning with a view to teaching financial responsibility.'

Possibly but they will shortly be plunged into a world where they have to pay for their continued education with credit and no plans nor guaranteed means for paying it off. This is how the majority of young people START their adult life now. Credit and debt is acceptable and encouraged. It has driven up the cost of living which means survival for most requires it.

Curbed credit though does reduce the amount of money available to those who can't afford it, ensuring that house-prices and rent stay lower. As well as other essential services. Companies and Landlords can only charge what the market allows and what people, or at least 'enough' people can pay for. And this has sod all to do with whether they can however, afford it.

I'm sorry Alice but ill continue to witter on about how if someone can afford £5k+ in holidays in a year then they can afford to pay rent without hb and should pay it before they splash out on holidays. If you can do both, good luck to you, if you holidays are for free, no problem!

I'm not saying someone on benefits shouldn't have something, in saying they should pay to live first and luxuries second.

I know a few "middle class" people (in comparison to the poor people on benefits) that live in much the same manner - are so tied up in credit due to holidays, cars they can't afford, and so forth - that they're struggling to pay their mortgage now. People can sometimes make foolish financial decisions on pretty much ANY income/benefit level. These things happen.

I love how we're all talking about what this family should or shouldn't be able to afford on benefits.

The husband is working. At least some of what they're spending is wages. Its a weird way around to be looking at things.

Anyway, why shouldn't people on benefits have luxuries or holidays?

Most families are on some sort of benefit because they claim child benefit.

Chunderella, so who is going to pay for this credit that needs to be taken by someone who is never going to pay it back?

Someone has to, why should it be other customers who have their own financial issues?

1. You have no idea about how your friend's finances work

(truly, you don't, even if your friend tells you loads of stuff)

1. Concentrate on your own situation and how best you can make it comfortable and affordable, be canny.
2. Childcare is a fucking KILLER expense (even if those who do it are only paid a saddeningly paltry wage for such an important job). I expect your friend cannot afford to return to work.
3. Everyone agrees the benefits system is a mess. SNAFU. But not as fucked up as the way that wages have dismally failed to keep up with living costs.

This is a prime example of the govt.'s deliberate strategy to pit "hardworking families" (read - the working poor and those of us just about coping) against those who can't find work or who are unable to (because they can't afford the childcare). Divide and conquer.

Rant over

The major worry in removing credit from 'poor' people is that they will simply get money from loan sharks/doorstep lenders.

I was bankrupt in 2007. Exactly 7 years ago, as it happens. DH and I had both accrued debts from attending university, we had a surprise baby and although I went back to work after maternity leave, we couldn't afford childcare in the longer term (my Mum was babysitting 30 hours per week), and DD1 was incredibly difficult to manage. She was later diagnosed with quite significant special needs, but at the time we didn't know.

Because we had consolidated debts, our financial histories were quite intertwined, so although I only had around £6k debt myself, we were advised by a leading charity that the safest way to proceed was for us both to declare at the same time.

We did so, and saw an OR who was kind and fair. He could see that we had no assets (rented accomodation, no fancy cars, no property or goods of any value) and we were of no interest to him, so he didn't impose an Income Payment Agreement.

DH was discharged after 8 months and I was discharged after 10 months.

We have never taken on debt since. The closest we've come to it, is asking the garage in advance to let us pay the bill for planned work over 3 monthly installments.

Life is a lot different to how we planned it. We have one DD with significant SN and one DD who is very vulnerable and is just on the edges of the diagnostic pathway, if we can ever get anyone to see her. Plus a DD who is NT.

I was a nurse. I can't work now because the course that would give me back my registration requires that you do all shift patterns, and I can't do that because DD1's SN transport will only drop off to our home address and I can't get childcare at 06.15 in the morning, which will have the girls, bring DD1 back to our home address in time for her bus, then take DDs 2&3 on to their school.

The cost of childcare for a child like DD1 is around £15 per hour. More than I would earn, before taking into account childcare for DDs 2&3.

You could argue that the benefits system in this case is working precisely as it should, to enable a family to have a decent standard of living whilst one person works hard outside the home, and the other works hard in it.

If you wanted.

Can I point out, also, that everyone in the UK, whether working rich, working poor, out of work, assylum seeking, illegal immigrant, etc., is a UK tax payer, because each and every one of them pays V.A.T on their purchases of non-food items.

Anyway, why shouldn't people on benefits have luxuries or holidays?

It depends why they are on benefits. If it's disability related then they do deserve luxuries, but otherwise the reason would be that if they have to claim benefits, they can't afford it?

I know it's a radical idea that might sound quite outrageous, but there is something to be said for only having luxuries you can afford out of your own earned income.

What are you classing as a luxury anyway?

A bar of chocolate, a new nail varnish or a couple of pints in the pub once a week is fair game. A holiday abroad is not.

Lougle, that is a ridiculous argument.

People cannot claim to be taxpayers when the only tax they pay is vat out of their benefits.

But it doesn't Meryl, having all the mod cons a flash car and nice holidays and letting someone/something else take on the more basic costs isn't fair.

I don't see benefits as 'my money' as i pay in, and don't think i should be equally entitled to them so i can have nice holidays, BUT I don't think accepting help as a lifestyle choice should be an option.

Why not, WooWooOwl?

Playing devil's advocate, you have said that:

A bar of chocolate, a new nail varnish or a couple of pints in the pub once per week is fair game.

What if Fred and Francis are on benefits because Fred is working full-time and Francis working part-time, but very low wages. They don't like chocolate, but they know their friend Gloria does. They decide to save the money that they would have spent on chocolate in a jar.

Francis isn't one for nail varnish, but her friend Tracy is. She spends £10 on a nail varnish every month. So Francis decides to save the money she would have spent on nail varnish in a jar.

Fred doesn't drink. But Bertie spends £8 on a couple of pints once per week. So Fred decides to save the money in a jar.

They have £20 per month going into their jar. 2 years later, a deal comes up for an abroad holiday - £400.

Why can't they take it?

If it's disability related then they do deserve luxuries, but otherwise the reason would be that if they have to claim benefits, they can't afford it?

Seriously, we're back to the "deserving poor" already? God how depressingly familiar.

I personally feel that if someone scrimps and saves for ages and manages to put enough money aside to get a holiday, then they should enjoy it. Regardless of where their money comes from.

WooWooOwl, of course they are . It is Value Added Tax.

The source of the money is irrelevant. At the point it is paid to them, it is theirs. Then the government taxes their purchases.

They are tax payers. Whether you like it or not.

Or are there 'worthy' tax payers and 'unworthy' tax payers, too.

It's a bit like the old arguments about 'old money' 'new money'

Why can someone have a couple of pints and nail varnish but not a holiday abroad?

I would have thought the misery of being on benefits mean a bit of family time in a nice climate was all the more important.

Who are you to define luxury or otherwise for another human being from your relative position of comfort.

In reality, I would have thought that any spare income would be better invested in a strategy to improve future income i.e. education, financial investment, paying off debts, buying transport means etc. But that is my attitude, with a reasonable education, reasonable health, enough heating and food to eat and the ability from all of these to have a positive outlook for the future.

Without some of those things I can imagine saying 'fuck it' and booking an escape from my helplessness and misery. Possibly the renewal of energy that followed might enable me to get through the next 6 months or even give me hope. Who knows?

What I do know is that benefits fraud is barely significant in our country's costs, that some people who ARE defrauding the system are doing it to survive, and that if people think it is such a lovely life they have that option open to them instead of whinging.

Fred and Francis thank you, Star