To think 'they won't remember' is a stupid thing to say?

[LightminTheQueem]

So many people tell me reassuringly when the baby's upset going to sleep, or if she's hurt and upset or if they're proposing CIO or any number of things, 'don't worry, she won't remember any of this' as if it's almost therefore ok to do things which upset babies because they'll have no memory of it. It irritates me. Is it therefore ok to do the same to someone with memory loss? Have none of them seen 'Memento'? Can they not sense their cruel inhumanity to their fellow memory deprived humans? Hmm?

"Cruel inhumanity" to babies? Memento?

What are you on about?

tonight, talking to my mum, i remembered how it felt to fall asleep holding her hand while she told me 'goldilocks'. i would have been less than four. i am now 56 and she is in a nursing home. i also remember that she sat in the dark with me for three weeks when i had measles as a toddler. and i remember a lot of bad stuff.

when people say children 'won't remember' it really annoys me.

It may not be remembered as a "memory" but it is remembered in learnt behaviour at a time that the dc is learning about the world v actively.

Road walker absolutely agree with you.
HV suggests CIO & cc as "baby crying anyway"!
I google does it hurt babies to cry (not because I'm thick but because I'm keen to see wider argument) it says physical act of crying does not hurt babies .... Effects of stress involved in crying does

Ziggie the way I look at it is you and your ds and me and my dd had a bad start to our relationships. It's sad and it sucks but it's a fact. She might not remember it but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. However while I feel bad about it I can't change it. I just put extra effort into building our relationship now.

I'm also an adoptive parent, and agree it's highly irritating when other parents (usually people with absolutely no specialist knowledge or understanding of child development) assure you that your child will have no memory of trauma, abuse or neglect in their first two years.

Of course the child won't 'remember': there's no memory before language, is there? But the intent of the observation is to reassure that there will have been no impact, and that's just crap.

Things that happen to pre-verbal babies do matter And that is not intended to make life more difficult for any mother who has experienced PND or struggled to cope with a young baby [putting my own hand up here - and yes, I do feel guilty about it]. Don't we all have plenty to feel guilty about, after all? And none of us can be sure how our parenting styles have affected our children - plus our children will vary in terms of their own resilience and personalities. But how can it really help to pretend that it doesn't matter?

"HV suggests CIO & cc as "baby crying anyway"!"

Some babies do cry all the time. My 1st did - cried nonstop, day and night, except when sleeping or feeding. I didn't understand what friends were talking about when they said "Ooh we wouldn't sleep-train as we can't stand to hear our baby cry", because ours cried all the time, regardless of whether she was held, sang to, cuddled, whatever.

Two nights of CC and she was sleeping through. It was bliss for everyone involved, with the added bonus that she became a much happier baby.

"physical act of crying does not hurt babies .... Effects of stress involved in crying does"

I'm guessing that has to do with a lot of crying, daily, over a very long period of time.

If crying was that detrimental to a baby's health, the human race would never have made it into the second generation.

Devora, I lurk on the adoption boards and I am so thankful that things have moved on since the early seventies and parents have more of an understanding. Thank you for that post.

Reading around trauma is very interesting. People who have suffered horrific trauma actually speak positively about it when the response from those around thwm was caring and supportive. Bad incidents are not automatically traumatic. Trauma comes from and uncontrolled or persistent sense of fear and insecurity.

Agree Cailin. Abject denial or minimalisation is so damaging.

You learn what to expect from other people when you are little and you also learn what is not normal and you are therefore less likely to put up with.

So when I hurt myself there was always a cuddle, always a kiss, always someone who cared and sometimes someone to say 'hey it wasn't that bad let it go'.

If you don't get that, you learn not to expect it from people, you learn that no-one cares and your pain doesn't matter.

If that happens often enough it is deeply ingrained and has be 'unlearned'.

'they won't remember' is indeed a ruddy stupid thing to say if it's an excuse for doing something unkind to a baby.

They 'won't remember' in terms of being able to give an accurate account from an adult's point of view. But of course unkindness, especially if sustained/repeated, can affect them.

And they may retain some dim memories from quite early on. My Granddad died when I was 18 months old - when I was nine, my mother found me playing a make-believe game he'd taught me. I had no idea. No 'memory' of him teaching me at all, but I knew the game and how to play it and must have carried on playing it without my mother noticing somehow (or forgot it at the time but thought of it again later, possibly).

Oh and thank you for the acknowledgement Shyla, I appreciate it. I'm sorry it happened to you too.

I agree Morloth. It's taken me a long time to learn I matter to people given the fact that Shyla who doesn't know me from adam has tonight shown more caring towards me wrt the abuse I suffered than my parents ever did.

Oh. Thank you, and you have made an extremely good point.

You take care x

What I always think when someone says this is, well you don't 'remember' learning to walk but the knowledge stays with you as you grow up.

If you learn early on that no one comes when you cry, you get smacked when you're cheeky or go hungry, you may not remember specific incidents but you retain the lessons they teach you.

As others have said, isolated incidents (other than severe trauma) in the context of a loving environment should not leave these long-term scars and also sometimes people have to make the best of very difficult situations, for example stepping away in order to protect mental health. It will also depend on the personality of the child and the other background factors.

DS is 14mo and I can see him taking in the world around him, soaking up information and processing it. He needs to tumble over in order to learn to walk, but also to trust that if he really falls, he will get a helping hand, or comfort and reassurance. It's so hard to get the balance right and I constantly worry about it - but it's also fascinating and joyful. There's no doubt that he will take these lessons through to adulthood - whether he remembers learning them or not.

Minimising the distress of others is all about safeguarding the feelings of the minimiser. Not the child. Or the distressed parent, desperate to help their child.

Trauma doesn't necessarily cause harm: it is the response to the trauma that counts. Shit happens but when it does, can you reasonably expect comfort and help and healing to be offered in the aftermath? If you can't, that is where the problem starts.

My 5 year old can remember every detail of breaking his leg just before his 2nd birthday. And my 6 year old can remember incredible details from the same age and earlier.

I also hate when people say they won't remember. I can remember loads of stuff from when I was little and I particularly hated when my Dad thought he could get me out of a bad mood by making remarks like, you could tie a knot in that lip.

I get he might have been trying to make me laugh but I just remember feeling really really angry. Now, if my DC are angry or upset, I make sure I acknowledge and name their feelings for them. I never ever make fun of them or expect them just to snap out of it.

I don't believe in CIO at all, if my DH left me to CIO when I was upset/overtired/ill/whatever, he'd get an instant divorce.

Sorry, might not be making total sense here, very late and been very ill!!! No offence intended to anyone.

The thing is, imo, you never know what a child will or won't remember. I have memories from about 2 years old, from minor things to important things, so the whole "they won't remember" is underestimating a child's memory. As long as you always do your best by them, and I'm sure you will, there is nothing anyone can say to make you feel less than great about every decision, right or wrong that you make for them.

I don't think controlled crying is damaging when done properly.

However I don't think "they won't remember it" is strictly true.

Small children do have memories. As we age those formative memories get replaced to make room for new ones, they still exist but get pushed into the subconscious mind.

So, Yanbu in one sense.

Lightmin I have just seen your last post and with the examples you have given you really are being unreasonable. It is said simply to reassure the parents, and as a parent of a child who went through some pretty horrid medical procedures at a very young age it DOES reassure, and it reassures more than being told "well it has to be done" or anything like that.

Of course it shouldn't be used as an excuse for long term abuse but the scenarios you used were such minor ones which the child really won't remember as part of a loving, caring childhood.

Most of the children I work with in play therapy are traumatized by things they "can't remember" or can't verbalize as happened when they are babies or toddlers.

but doesn't the trauma come from hormones released by stress - so it is different when a parent is soothing / holding a crying child to the child being left to cry for prolonged periods so the parent soothing is helping to reduce the stress - and in time we all learn to self soothe.

We don't all learn to self soothe.

Attachment style is pretty ingrained by 11 months old.....but it can be changed.

The table about a quarter way down the page is interesting: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

If you are sensitive to and mirror your childs emotions and are able to name the emotion and encourage them to self soothe (e.g have an empathic face, name the emotion, don't make it your own (be calm yourself) and soothe them) most of the time. Its fine. 65% of children are securely attached.

Of course it's not ok to hurt or upset a baby but things do happen without intention - a toddler biting the baby or baby falling down a step or a bit of PND. My kids are well bonded, well balanced and very centred despite things not being 100% smooth. Their overall experience of babyhood was one of general love/care/security/attention. This general experience continued through childhood, so despite it not being perfect (falling off chairs, odd tantrums) they seem content.

Also feel that kids/babies pick up on patents emotions. Best to model the behaviour you want to see in them.