to think M and S are now terrible employers and deserve eveything they get...

[glasgowsteven]

Long story short... A friend of mine started with M and S in Leeds, in July, on a 2 month temp contract, with about 60 others..... 30 hours a week, set shifts, nice job...

then after three months they were all given another 3 month temp contract, to take them to 27th Dec.

they were all told, that temp contracts are just a precursor to a Permanent one, and after 3 temp contracts they will all get a permanent one - with a pay rise also...

November comes

"Overtime availability please, the more shifts you are availbale for, the better it will be come contract renewal...."

December 19th comes...

"we are sorry to tell you all that there is not enough work to give the permanent staff, sorry, you all finish on 27th, but we may call you in Feb or march if we need more staff"

Reaction was mixed, disbelief, tears, or walking out, or in some cases a combination of this.....

I could have understood Christmas temps not being kept on after a month, but these folk had been there approx half a year, working full time.

The stories of people who were relying on the money, who have had their confidence trashed, who just want to give up now.....

Horrible place and if they are hitting the skids, the managers at a local level deserve all the flak that is coming

A friend has been made redudant twice in under 4 years. She is now temping and has been for longer than one of her permament roles!

It is very childish to stomp out when your temp role doesnt become permament.

Sparklyknickers completely agree. I've never understood why companies take on a series of temps with no sense of continuity when they can just keep on the original temps as permanent in the first place.

Oh hang on...

Sparklyknickers completely agree. I've never understood why companies take on a series of temps with no sense of continuity when they can just keep on the original temps as permanent in the first place.

We have a winner...

keep the staff worried, no job secuirty, we can dangle that carrot

It is not about keeping staff worried, it is the difficulty in sacking staff, either through incompetence or redundancy.
the high street is very difficult at the moment, so M&S want staff to cover now but also have flexibility if sales start to fall.
If employers were able to gte rid of people more easily, there would be more people in work.

It's only a carrot if you let them have that power. Treat it for what it is and don't rely on verbal promises - just pick up your pay cheque.

A temporary contract isn't something to get wound up over. If you do then you have a very misguided sense of entitlement. Whether it makes business sense to you is neither here nor there - have a little chuckle to yourself when you're proved right if you must and put your energy into finding something right for you.

I'll save my outrage for the way zero hour contracts are misused thanks.

I was a christmas temp at m&s about 15 years ago and we had temps taken on in the summer, who were always referred to as Christmas temps. Only a few ever got kept on in those days too, probably about 30 %? It is disappointing but not unexpected. Until you have signed the permanent contract then you cannot assume you have a permanent job. As said above, just get as many hours as possible to maximise the cash.

M&S exist to make money for their shareholders.End of story.

They do not want to be paying staff they have no work for.That is why they are employing temps.At the time they were told that their contracts would be renewed the employers most probably believed that.But things change more management information , forecasts aetc are produced and they have to take action accordingly.

Why are you getting your knickers in such a twist, Op? Whatever you call them they are temps. It doesn't matter what an employer says, nothing is definite until you have a permanent contract in your clammy mitt.

Yes, it does suck but this is business. It's dire out there and retail is one industry that is suffering. I'm not at all surprised they are not keeping them on after Christmas. In fact, at the moment I'd expect it.

I've seen employees treated far worse than that. At least M&S had the courtesy to tell them they were definitely finishing at Christmas (a couple of weeks ahead of the date).

"around 20% walked out on the spot. Another 30 odd percent never came back in...."

If that's the kind of staff they were, that may have had a lot to do with the decision tbh. I don't know anyone who would walk out of a temp job when given plenty of notice that it wasn't going to be permanent. Disappointing, yes. Walk out, thereby losing pay and any chance of future work? Childish I'm afraid.

Perhaps M&S genuinely intended to offer a proportion of the temps permanent contracts but a combination of commercial changes and a cohort which gave an impression of not having the best attitude changed their mind?

I can't really see the point of M&S anymore.

I'm going to bin it.

Update -

My friend had his exit interview This morning.

First thing on his last shift.

Was told it was apleasure working with him, his details would b kept on file at the store for a year and he could expect to hear from them within a few weeks/months

So by not walking out or crying, he has the chance of a job in future.

Good for your friend - hopefully he will hear from them soon and get a permanent contract. He's proved himself more reliable than the ones who walked out.

Fingers crossed it's soon as poss after Xmas.

Excellent. He obviously handled the bad news well and has demonstrated a good attitude throughout, which will pay dividends.

I don't know why people are saying M&S has done nothing wrong. Legally, yes of course that's true, but morally?

They wanted to make sure that were fully staffed over the Xmas period. So they tricked the temporary workers into making themselves available for extra shifts, by promising permanent contracts, probably knowing all the time there was no chance of that. Very cynical and unpleasant.

I said up thread, my friend is not the main breadwinner in his household, his partner is.

Losing the job was not life or death to him.

He put in his notice so he never worked until the end of his contract, but he did give 7 days notice from when he was told you are not being kept on.

Nadiawadia I agree totally, they must have known - say mid November - our budgets are a bit screwed....so we wont be keeping the temps on.

But in saying that if they had told them that a lot would have left and moved to other tempjobs where there was maybe a chance to be kept on....

Hopefully they will hear something positive over late winter early spring...

Of course, businesses know! Jeez, you're a very naive employee if you think a business is going to take care of you. I'm a PA and lying in business is a common theme.

The sole purpose of pretty much most business is to make money and keep the shareholders happy. Mollycoddling the staff is very low down on the list of priorities. If you don't like it then they'll just find someone else to do the job.

I'm not condoning what they've done but I've seen this attitude for years. As a result, I am now very old and cynical...

I blame the government, not M&S per say. Employers have far too many rights while employee rights are being eroded away.

yanbu. Sounds shit

I had this with a care/special ed job ages ago, they basically had some staff on maternity leave but took on new people claiming it was a permanent job but then when they found out the person was coming back they found some excuse to say people had failed probationary period. It is shit but unfortunately not just M&S, all employers can treat people as disposable at the moment because it's the state of the labour market. I think since the 70s it has been this all the time. Needs to be addressed of course but none of the political parties care, even though they go on and on about people on benefits, they don't even try to create more permanent secure jobs. :( Hope your friend and the others have a decent Christmas and find something new soon.

BTW also it's completely wrong to talk about 'a sense of entitlement' in this context. Everyone is entitled to a job which pays enough for them to live on. It's in the UN human rights charter (Article 23, here: www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/). It's therefore recognised, globally, as a very basic right on the same level as not being executed or the right to vote etc. It's not 'entitled' to ask that your basic human rights are respected.

They are a business, if they fold many more will be let go, and without work.

Some of the staff might still get an offer of a permanent place on the 27th, and now it will be a lot easier for M&S to decide which ones!

July to December is not 3 temp contracts, surely it is 2. These people have had jobs for 6 months not 9. They cant risk the financial future of the business by keeping on 60 staff they dont need, when their sales are lower than expected. Even one month (January) of 60 salaries may be crucial if a business i struggling.

Temporary contracts, fixed term contracts are now a fact of our working life. I work for the NHS and 50 % of jobs advertised are not permanent these days. My dh works in the city where again 50% of employees are contractors. There are very few 'safe' jobs these days. What we can do is to ensure we have the skills to make us employable should we be made redundant. The golden days of life long jobs, generous pensions and terms & conditions are over for the vast majority

"BTW also it's completely wrong to talk about 'a sense of entitlement' in this context. Everyone is entitled to a job which pays enough for them to live on. It's in the UN human rights charter (Article 23, here: www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/). It's therefore recognised, globally, as a very basic right on the same level as not being executed or the right to vote etc. It's not 'entitled' to ask that your basic human rights are respected."

You can't seriously be arguing that M&S are breaching these people's human rights by not giving them a permanent contract?! And I'm assuming you must be joking by saying their human right to a job is the same level as their right not to be executed?

This is standard procedure for M&S unfortunately. My DSis started working there as a Xmas temp in October 2012. She's been on a series of 3 month contracts ever since, and has been told FOUR TIMES that on a fixed, named date in the future (e.g. first time it was January, then March, then June) that she would be told one way or the other whether there was a permanent job for her. All along, her manager has been saying 'ooooh it's looking good!' and then last week they called each temp in one by one and gave them a mini bottle (one of those single glass size) of wine and said 'thanks very much, you finish on 31st December'. But then she has been given her shifts for the first week of January.... So none of it is honest, straightforward and truthful. I hate the lack of honesty. If they said, 'Look, we don't know if there will be a permanent job for any of you and we won't know for some time' then at least everyone knows where they stand - but stringing people along for 14 months? Not a nice thing to do IMO. YANBU. John Lewis is a much nicer employer FWIW!