To not actually understand what constitutes a "professional job"?

[BakerStreetSaxRift]

Hello, this could be a stupid question, but I did try googling it and couldn't get a straight answer.

Could someone please explain what the criteria are for having a professional job? I'm trying to work out if I have one.

I've read various things that say doctors, nurses, teachers, lawyers, electricians, train/bus drivers (or anything you need a licence for), engineers etc are all professional jobs. But that seems a bit like any job can be described as professional. Would it be easier to work out which ones aren't?

Thanks in advance!

And the term Chartered Engineer is legally protected here - I can call myself "Chartered Civil Engineer", but you cannot do that if you aren't MICE. However, I would like to see the generic "engineer" protected as well, to be honest...

I'm not at all surprised that there is debate, because the word is often used much more casually.

I'm especially thinking of estate agents - "would suit young professional couple" - they mean people with decently-paid jobs, they're not interested in whether they have to be a registered member of a professional body.

We're talking about the difference between

1- what does the word mean

2 - what information do people intend to convey when they say the word

I think it means you must have a specific qualification to do that job and there is a definitive list held somewhere of all the people allowed to do it. In other words the qualification and training involved are not just a plUS but a legal requirement.

For instance, journalist is therefore not a profession as if you own a newspaper or similar you can hire anyone you like to write for you.

Exactly Trills

Viva Foucalt.

Back when the world was simpler, it used to mean any job where you HAD to have qualifications by examination (usually a degree plus a postgrad or qualifying exam) to be allowed to do the job. So doctor (medical degree plus a series of professional body examinations), law (degree plus law conversion, plus training contract), teacher (degree plus PGCE), clergy (degree plus theological training). These days also anything that requires chartered status (architect, engineer, accountant). University lecturers are included but weirdly the PhD has only recently become an essential qualification (though in previous centuries you had to be a Rev'd ;-)

Mim there is a definitive list held somewhere of all the people allowed to do it.

This made a lightbulb appear over my head. I can see why my job (scientist) is not a profession and the others quoted here (e.g. lawyer) are.

Although...did someone mention up thread that anyone can be a lawyer? And where does that leave teachers? You can be legally employed as a teacher without any teaching qual - do you still need professional registration?

Interestingly, biomedical scientist IS a profession. Just us lowly academic researchers who aren't....

This thread has reminded me of when I worked at the council a few years ago - there was a job going within the department but it requires a civil engineering degree. Two guys were going to go for it, but one of the women wanted to but couldn't because she only had GCSEs. She went around complaining to anyone who would listen that she was being 'discriminated against' because she didn't have a degree

There may have been snobbishness about profession in the past but I don't see that any longer
It doesn't necessarily mean higher pay or status
You do know if you are in a profession- it costs a fortune to work
My job is not particularly well paid and my monthly fees to stay registered and the fee to my professional body makes a wacking great hole in my pay
A lot now is about protecting the public

Of course, being able to sign a passport makes it all worthwhile

I will be part of a profession when I qualify as a paramedic, degree and registration with professional body, can be struck off for 'bringing the profession into disrepute' but I'll earn half of what a train driver earns.

I signed my first passport the other week, I felt like the bloody king of all everything.

With regards to the engineering, I know you need to do more exams to be a Chartered Engineer, but guy's more thinking that even if you had only a B or M.Eng, you would still be a professional if you were using that degree in your job?

However, if it's Chartered Status that's key, then for the type of post-grad qualifications that go: certificate - diploma - Chartered Status, then is it only when you get to Chartered Status that it is professional? If so, why is teaching, with only a PG certificate?

Also (sorry, I'm not trying to muddy the waters) but what about police officers? I would have put them down as professionals, but they don't need any qualifications really.

Which then leads it on to the Forces? Are soldiers? The Navy? The RAF? I would say they gets increasingly more professional, but again not sure why I think the RAF is more professional than the army?

I've been thinking about this all day, and I'd like to propose a new definition for a profession. I reckon that if you have a profession, then you're still one even if not actually working as one.

So, if you're an unemployed doctor working in a cake shop, you're still a doctor. Thus it is a profession.

On the other hand, if you're a - ahem - train driver, but you're working as an estate agent, then actually, you're an estate agent, not a train driver.

Does that work? I suspect it falls down with apprenticeship-based trades.

I thought it meant you were registered with a professional body. I'm a pharmacist but wouldn't be able to call myself one if I did not maintain my registration.

Police officers are qualified in a sense. It's all changing a bit (you have to do a course before you can even apply here) but when dh applied he had to do a compulsory training period of 6 months and be assessed as meeting professional standards and then a further 18 months probation during which he had to achieve an NVQ in Policing. To progress he has done an MA in policing, many courses and professional qualifications and sits exams at least every couple of years. I think his job probably does fit the 'criteria' as people try to list them.

I can countersign passports but am not a professional.
I have a MA but if I didn't I could still do my job (civil service).

I thought teachers did have to have the qualification - in state schools anaway. I would be uncomfortable with a definition that didn't include teachers but I suppose that doesn't affect whether it's correct or not!

mignonette. Re nursing post: beautifully put. I think it's still seen as a 'Dr's handmaiden' job by many people.

Thanks Bump. yes yes to the 'Handmaiden' bit by some of the older or more arrogant Drs. Some of the juniors can be a bit like that until they are bleeped to come treat an acutely psychotic client at 3 a.m and nearly wet their pants with uncertainty. We whisper what to do in their ear to spare their egos, assist them and by the next day they have settled down . The Drs and the clients!

Woodburner good luck with the exam. Best advice I can give is to devise a timetable and stick to it! Get your two.solutions and motor through from there. Oh, and make sure you have a nice treat the next day as you'll be knackered afterwards! Hope it goes well, though you must have at least a few months to go,:)

Prep course at HQ, just before they move is 21st Feb, exam is 25th April. I have 3DC's, age 6,3 and 1, Lord only knows when I'm going to revise!

DH passed second time, I need to go one better - this is my first go at it... At least as MICE I didn't have to do the interview...

Good luck Woodburner