To not actually understand what constitutes a "professional job"?

[BakerStreetSaxRift]

Hello, this could be a stupid question, but I did try googling it and couldn't get a straight answer.

Could someone please explain what the criteria are for having a professional job? I'm trying to work out if I have one.

I've read various things that say doctors, nurses, teachers, lawyers, electricians, train/bus drivers (or anything you need a licence for), engineers etc are all professional jobs. But that seems a bit like any job can be described as professional. Would it be easier to work out which ones aren't?

Thanks in advance!

Originally teh professions were
the church
law or
medicine
In my grandmas day it meant 'not trade' which would have been looked down upon by the then equivalent of the middle class.
Today just means something using a skill so anything from astronaut to hooker

Mistermakersgloopyglue - I think your DH has a point. People who might otherwise be called "mechanic" or "technician" call themselves "engineer". I understand that in some other countries there is licencing to prevent misuse of the title "engineer". There is a campaign to legally protect the title of "engineer" in the UK.

I think that a professional job is partly about managing your own time and workload - i.e. not paid per hour and not being paid for overtime.

Anything that requires training / experience / qualifications.

eg DH is a computer programmer - no qualifications but experience important. But I would say that's professional.

Oh yes breathe he has talked about places like Germany I think where the term 'engineer' is protected and much more prestigious than here.

Funnily enough he also talks about not being paid by the hour and not getting paid overtime, and also many 'shift' jobs (although that obviously doesn't apply to medical profession jobs) - you are obviously on a similar wavelength

I see a Professional Job as one where you have recognised qualifications (Degree level minimum) and are overseen by a Governing Body that you have to officially be registered with, that you are accountable to and are regularly monitored/assessed within their professional guidelines to ensure you are fit to practice in the role - And usually employees have to pay for that 'privilege'

But forever, experience doesn't always mean 'professional' does it? My dad does a highly skilled manual job and has a lot of experience in it (much to his disgust!) . However you could never describe his job as 'professional' I don't think, otherwise any job could be described as such?

mistermakers You need a for pretty much anything in Germany. That's not always a good thing.

Gasman, I'm a lawyer, after legal practice course you do two year training contract much like your f1/f2 placement year and during this you take the professional skills course which has three exams in it. If you do a law degree it takes 6 years minimum to qualify. If you don't it's 7.

My rule of thumb is that a professional is anyone allowed to countersign my passport application.

I assumed it would be someone with a chartered status/membership to a professional body, ie doctor, lawyer, accountant etc. You always have to pay silly money to the body to stay as a professional in that field.

There are lots of jobs that are highly skilled but not professional AFAIK. It doesn't make professional jobs more important, just different.

BTW, train driver is not a profession - paid a fortune due to the influence of the unions and the inability of the country to face a strike, despite the obvious long term benefits.
In other country undergrounds, the driver is automated, so significantly cheaper.

But I don't think a doctor or engineer would need post-grad qualifications

Well doctors do about 10 years post grad training for many branches, I think GP training is a little bit less.

I would say nursing and teaching are not strictly part of 'the professions' in the old fashioned sense but they are becoming professionalised.

mistermakers it's not just Germany....pretty much everywhere else in the world protects the title 'Engineer'. It's just us in the UK that have this wierd anomaly.

Whenever the question is raised, the main argument against protecting it in the UK is that it's been misused for years and so would be too hard... So the answer against it is just to restate the problem! Sigh...

I think I come under professional as an HR director although I seem to spend most of my time offshore in coveralls and a hard hat these days.

Years ago, I was a UK nurse, I don't think that was the same. It was just a job with a set of rules you had to follow. No initiative or brainpower needed.

NigellaLaw5on -

I'm gratified that you think that my post was the biggest load of tosh you've ever read on these forums. Given the quality and quantity of crap generally available on AIBU, that's an achievement.

I thought I'd explained why I wouldn't have considered train driving to be a job. I agree that it's skilled and responsible, but those aren't the criteria being applied. Why do you consider that it is a profession?

• It doesn't require academic qualifications
• There is no professional body
• There is no ongoing body of evidence/research being built
• There is very little autonomy
• It is highly unionised
• It is not considered as a profession by the more 'recognised' professions (so no direct access schemes etc.)
• Drivers don't buy their own indemnity insurance
• There is no body of train drivers who can discipline/remove right to work; this is done by the employer
• Overtime is paid
• Master/servant relationship with employer, not adviser/client
• It is role that can be carried out by a robot (DLR).

I would have thought this fairly uncontentious.

I met a nice looking young man many moons ago and we got chatting, he told me he was an engineer and I was quite excited (ooh, something in common!) 'me too!' I said. 'I'm a Mechanical Engineer with x company, I only got my masters last year so I've not been doing it long, what about you?'
'I mend broken tellies'

Disclaimer: nothing wrong with mending broken tellies but that makes you a tv repairman, not an engineer.

But I don't think a doctor or engineer would need post-grad qualifications

well doctors do and you cannot be a chartered engineer with just a Beng you need either an Meng or post grad qualifiction.

I tend to take it to mean the stuff on the passport checking list. This means I check a lot of passports. In that way it isn't related to qualifications - can't do a specific qual in my area - but standing in the community. Whatever the hell that means!

The notion of the traditional professions is becoming a bit extended, with degree requirements for nursing and professional bodies that can strike off pharmacists, teachers, etc..

Hardware, mechanical, software, electronics engineers, etc are analogous. Nothing to stop them organising themselves into a compulsory regulators body rquiring membership.

Re train drivers - I dont consider them professionals as there isn't a sufficient academic element. Again, its analogous how much they are paid - there are certain heavily unionised well paid jobs which tend to be male dominated which fall into the same category. Refuse collectors are a similar case, and I doubt those employees involved in the recent Ineos dispute in Grangemouth earning an average 55k a year were all degree qualified engineers...

Nursing meets every criteria for a 'profession'.

Own body of knowledge
Protected title
Discreet training with registration
CPD required to maintain registration
Post registration and post graduate training
Clear structure for progression
Clear grading of experience and role
Standing within the community (except by some old school Doctors who seem unaccountably threatened by bright high achieving nurses)

So does teaching.

Some professions spend too time trying to define what is not one.

Sorry lessmissabs but I don't think you know very much about engineers (hardware?). There are many professional engineering bodies. I'm a member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers.

Actually I'm surprised there is even any debate about this, it's not a matter of anyone's 'opinion' what constitutes a profession, it's post-graduate qualifications and membership of a professional body. So not a train driver.

I'm a Chartered Engineer, and you absolutely need postgrad qualifications - I did a first degree masters, so I'm MEng, then I had to do 5 years on the job training, submit a large portfolio of evidence, have a 2 hour interview and then sit a written exam to be CEng. I'm also going to be sitting another 7 hour exam (I think lastnightIwenttoManderley has already done this exam!) to be qualify for a different institution as well. Slightly showing off to be doubly qualified, but my job role has changed in the last few years, so it is appropriate to be seeking membership of a different body right now.

I thought a profession was just a paid job. Like the difference between a professional footballer and amateur one is that they get paid.
I'm baffled by this thread!

What's this disdain about the unions? There's the BMA for doctors (granted, a bit toothless), teachers have their own union etc. It's not a dirty word and something only for 'trades'.