To think capping child tax credits at two children will plunge more families into poverty

[SoonToBeSix]

Can't link but article is in the Daily Fail. A Tory mp has proposed capping child benefit and child tax credits at two children in order to win votes.
What happens to those children whose parents circumstances change ie redundancy or there is a contraception failure?
This government is taking welfare cuts too far while continuing to let the very rich avoid paying the correct taxes.

I've never understood tax credits as a form of sensible fiscal management.

You pays your tax out of your wages, THEN the government decides in it's own nanny state egocentric way, how deserving you are to in order to give you back some of your OWN MONEY according to a set formula.

How much does it cost to administer the tax credits? How many people are employed in this obvious "non job" by the tax payer?

Would it be cheaper for the country to simply raise the lowest tax band so that people didn't NEED to beg for their OWN MONEY to be returned to them in order to feed their kids? Who the hell am I to point my finger at the family who has suffered sickness, redundancy or an abusive situation and found themselves having to claim a bit of help?

What impact would it have on British business if the minimum wage could be raised to a living one? (the small business sector that traditionally RAISES a nation out of recession, rather than the multi-national tax avoidant Starbucks, amazons, banks etc who simply socialise loss and privatise profit)> We've heard from the big business lobbyists who think that shacking shelves on workfare is a great deal for them, when are we going to hear from the smaller, more genuinely productive sections of the economy? Those parts that are too busy building up genuine products and opportunities to have the time to get a tame MP or two in their pocket?

How on earth is it more fiscally responsible for the tax payer to be out sheer fortunes in housing benefits to the private sector, as opposed to building new council homes? A council could own a mortgage on a property for £25 years, but once that is paid rents need only cover repairs - surely that is cheaper for us as a nation then the current system if we want to consider the security of future generations? Housing costs are pushing many into poverty.

When are we going to stop the mass importation of foreign skilled workers, due to the failure of our own education system to train sufficient youngsters in the skills needed by a modern global economy? When are the banks actually going to repay to the tax payer all that bailout money? Why can we not replicate what Iceland has done?

I don't feel it's the governments place to interfere in the private sphere as much as it currently does, and I'll not be joining the clamour to denigrate the mother of four who through no fault of her own is traded in by her husband for a younger model, or the family where the breadwinner suffers an industrial accident etc, etc.

The sign of a truly civilised society to me has always been best demonstrated by it's ability to care and provide for its most vulnerable. In the UK today we are devolving so far away from that ideal, it's just not funny anymore.

'disability payments should be completely separate, and more in proportion to what the real costs of a persons disability'

Are they not already? DLA is paid depending on how severe your childs disability is and the level of care they need.

DLA is paid separately to Tax credits and child benefit.

'Please don't assume our lives are all that different....that is all i am going to say.'

If our lives were not all that different, canyouseemenow, then you would have a great deal more empathy than you have.

Live my life for one day thats all I can say. I totally sit on my arse chain smoking and watching jeremy kyle. My ds put my 4 year old dd in hospital with one of his violent outbursts. Thats the reality of MY life.

there's really no need for all the worry over whether women will disproportionately suffer if child related benefits are capped to two children.

The point is they are both equally able to desist from procreating, but women suffer disproportionately because they are left with the baby, not because they trap men into having babies.

This always comes back to the fact that

1. As a society if we have children who are unhoused, unfed and inadequately clothed we are all affected whether we like it or not.
2. As BackonlyBriefly says, we all potentially need the safety net unless we stash away enough money to support a child for 18 years before having them. You are effectively saying that nobody should have more than 2 children.

I totally sit on my arse chain smoking and watching jeremy kyle

That was sarcasm btw, in case you lot start getting your knickers in a twist

Are they not already? DLA is paid depending on how severe your childs disability is and the level of care they need.

DLA is separate to the element of child tax credits that can be paid of a child has a disability, so no, they are not currently completely separate.

I think it's unfair because the state safety net should pay according to disability, not income. Those of us that pay tax do not deserve less than those who don't, or who pay very little, if we both have a child with the same levels of disability.

The point is they are both equally able to desist from procreating, but women suffer disproportionately because they are left with the baby

Only if they choose to have a baby when they know the man they created it with doesn't want it and they go ahead and have it anyway.

If men had the same opportunity to opt out of parenting at the same stage of pregnancy as women do, then any who don't could reasonably be held financially responsible by the government. The CSA needs to be completely overhauled and laws need to change to make fathers as well as mothers take financial responsibility.

Its not that i dont have empathy i just hate the oh woe is me my life used to be good now its shit bollocks. Be grateful for what you have, in a lot of places in the world, you would get no help. I have 2 beautiful children, one having SEN and i look at them both every day and realise how fortunate i am.

DLA is not means tested though, or am I being thick.

or are you referring to disabled element of child tax credits?

If you are I think its very mean of you to begrudge the parent of a disabled child a little bit extra if their income is under the threshold.

And why the fuck did they call them tax credits when they can be awarded to people that have never paid tax?

Apart from the obvious, being cases of teen mums claiming tax credits, do you realise the number of people who have never paid tax? Its basically zero.

The name is probably misleading, but let's not start acting like there are vast numbers of people claiming tax credits who have never worked because its simply not true.

Earlier on this thread I illustrated through my own situation. I worked full time paying tax from 17-21 and I will work again from age 31-71 if not sooner. That's 10 years of help against 45 years of contributing. Add to that my DPs 50 odd years of conntributions and that's nearly 100 years of tax being paid and only 10 years of full benefits being claimed. When I return to work I hope to have a degree so chances are our household income will be above the tax credits threshold so we won't even be claiming them.

I would say that the vast majority of claimants have a similar story.

Cantheyseeme

Its ridiculous to tell a poster who has a cold house, no food and all the difficulties her sons disabilities bring, that she should be grateful she doesn't live in a third world country.

The fact is, she lives in the UK in 2013 and her life should not be like this.

I didnt mean just 3rd world countries! I get called ridiculous a lot on here, i think i must live on a totally alien planet

Errr.....Woo Woo DLA IS paid according to disability not income Thats howcome the Camerons got it for their late son.

cantheyseeme And in a lot of places you would get MORE help. Why are you looking down instead of up. Whats with the race to the bottom.

Im trying to make the point that people need to be fortunate that we do have a system that helps those in need, it might be a bit shit or whatever but it keeps hundreds of thousands of people housed and fed!

Millions even, not got my brain on today.

Not a different planet, just lacking in empathy, and a desire to look after our vulnerable. Sadly you are not alone.

I do not lack empathy, i really dont!

I only have ine child and he has autism.....I am still fortunate.

Financially though it WAS easier when I was able to work full time. As DS has got older this has become impossible....thats not a "woe is me", just a statement of fact,

I am fortunate but still reliant on benefits to a large degree.

My reading around DS's autism makes me understand that he will always struggle so that when other parents are waving their children off to university and independence I (and others in a similar position) will still be trying to cope with the challenges autism or any other disability brings on a daily basis and still fighting the battles they might not be able to fight themselves.

What was there before Tax Credits anyhow? I seem to remember something called Supplementary Benefit.....or did that become Income Support?

Was it family allowance, im way too young to remember but i know my mum claimed some support.

JakeBullet, the woe is me was by no means aimed at you.

There will be more cuts wrt disabled children receiving middle rate care DLA when the universal credit is implemented.
Atm, disabled children who are receiving middle rate care DLA are also eligible for extra child tax credit. This is not the case under universal credit rules.

There's going to be a huge number of disabled children who will be plunged into poverty at the point of change over from tax credits to universal credit.

Still, It should save tax payers a few pounds.

FWIW, I don't understand the contempt for providing for children, yet pensioners are the largest recipients of welfare, and no one dares to question this? Are children just an easy target? Is it somehow more acceptable for children to live in poverty then?

If benefits were capped at 2 children, the amount of money that would be saved is a piss in the sea compared to other expenditure, simply because there are less families than you think who a) have 3 or more children, and b) would have 3 or more children if this was ever implemented, and since it wont affect families who already have 3 or more children when it would be introduced, that will be very few families.

I think Family Allowance became Child Benefit.

I seem to recall some family thing which tax credits replaced. Might have been Family Credit or something. Need to google....

People dont make informed decisions about having pensioners

Housed yes, sometimes. Don't get me started on homelessness.

Fed? Not so much.

The system is lining the pockets of big business while it forces people, who a lot of the time are ill or disabled or caring for someone who is, to jump through hoops just to get a few pounds. Then they get told (if they are lucky) that the money is stopping and while they appeal they are living on fresh air. They people in the jobcentres don't care and are actively being told to sanction anyone for any reason at all. They are also being told to not help or advise people and to not inform them of their right of appeal.

Yes my dm used to collect family allowance.

I do think our welfare system is generous and the state has taken away the responsibility of the fathers to pay for their dc.

also lack of prospects doesn't help. traditional workplaces etc. everything is a lot more difficult. in the 80s you didn't need the qualifications you need now.