AIBU to think that it is outrageous even to think that universities should be able to segregate men and women

[LoveSewingBee]

Sorry for the long title.

Link to BBC article

For once, I agree with Cameron.

Hmm. That was long.

tl;dr: "they're British, there aren't many of them, their audience are as unpleasant as they are, unintended consequences, deeply unpleasant, deeply regrettable, let the cunts get on with it"

BackOnlyBriefly

Would you say the same for men only groups?

And racism trumps sexism at every turn, doesn't it.

Yes there are fundamentalist Muslim speakers in the same vein as fundamentalist Christian groups or whatever - do we just shrug and go to the pub? Is that the answer?

This has been going on fir a long time in universities - along with male-only dinners, shouting down young women and sexually harassing them. It goes on in 'strong white' circles too.

This is not just about Muslims, it is not about 'them' it is about 'us' as a community, Muslim and whatever else, and what we are prepared to tolerate in the context of women's rights in a higher ed institution across the board.

Because one day those men and women will be in positions of power

Anyone saying these should be allowed if the attendees agree might like to consider where they stand on female genital mutation. This is normally practiced by women who have also suffered it because they have been brainwashed educated this is right. Many muslim girls are in this positon and we, as a Western liberal state, have to challenge this. It is this 'respect' for 'cultural' values that causes so much continued suffering, particularly for women, in this country.

General Sir Charles James Napier, the Commander-in-Chief in India from 1859 to 1861 is often noted for a story involving Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of sati by British authorities.
"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs." [32]

BoneyBackJefferson It might have to if their sole purpose is associating with men (or women). After all if someone stipulated on a dating site that they only wanted to meet the opposite sex that wouldn't be sexist would it because that's the purpose of being there.

I don't want to see lots of men only or women only clubs personally, but I don't see how you can forbid them without compromising freedoms.

However they don't completely fit my argument as the women only groups I was thinking of would be things like rape/DV support which are not simply about not liking men.

It's not about banning clubs etc

It's about someone coming to a university to give a talk and insisting the audience is segregated according to gender.

That's all

I know a 6th Form college that has a Common Room and a Girl's Only Common Room.

The boys aren't too impressed about it.

BackOnlyBriefly

I don't disagree.

But what about women only swimming sessions, gyms, common rooms.
Or not being able to run father and child days or running male only sessions because of complaints?

BoneyBackJefferson It's tricky isn't it. Unlike skin color and such there actually is a difference between men and women. Not in worth or rights of course, but it can actually matter to some people. Especially in a place where you will not be fully dressed. Someone of the opposite sex might be looking at you in a sexual way and this can be intimidating.

On the whole I'd say no to all of those though because they are divisive without achieving the desired result. After all some of those there might be homosexual and what day do transexual people swim? The whole thing becomes a farce and makes it difficult for some people to use the facilities at all.

Is it actually illegal for a female to use male toilets? Or is it just social convention and she wouldn't be breaking any law.
Is this segregation voluntary?

Is having different signs leading to different toilets for each sex illegal? Are they just suggesting which is culturally appropriate.

Are me and my partner legally allowed to go into the ladies toilets together?

I know these questions sound silly and are a totally different situation than this thread but I was just wondering about the actual laws on this sort of thing. Are there any laws already in place? Could we make some laws? Should we? How would we?

Friday - your repeated assertions that ISOC's are hotbeds of extremism attended by "cunts" are unfounded and very unpleasant.

"Wahabi" type extremism is far less popular in the UK then you suggest and it certainlycertainly does not have free reign on campus. ISOC's are generally very wary of what goes on. Also, I'm still waiting to hear why meals during Ramadan are so extremist.

ISOC's generally publish their schedules openly and have a very open door policy, so again, the idea that they are hate groups operating on campus under the guise of free speech is nonsense.

Carol - people sitting in different areas is nothing like FGM.

Redshifter, I think that one of the fascinating things about a culture is how some conventions are so well-established that they become unwritten laws, and you only realise that when someone breaks 'the rule'
There may or may not be an actual law about single sex toilets, but when have we needed one?
Most people follow the conventions of their own society. which is why those who don't tend to cause shock, or be seen as radicals.

There doesn't seem to be much choice about this..

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/14/article-0-1A1B55FA00000578-27_634x510.jpg

Where is that photo from? Prayer rooms on campus often have different entrances for men and women and are often signposted in such a fashion.

The thing is that if you block this where does it end?
SGB touched on it as has Backonly

How will people justify gender only sessions/areas/groups if this is stopped.

I think that's from the talk itself.

We should put that picture in a museum so that future generations can marvel at how primitive society was in the early 2,000s.

Gosh It is attributed to the Guardian. The poster says where it is.

But why should such signs be instructing the sexes to be segregated?

BoneyBackJefferson are you really arguing for women only sessions for swimming and so on? If so when do you think transgender and homosexual people should swim?

If there is a good reason for something being women only or men only then it wouldn't be a problem would it. And if you don't have a reason why would you want it.

In the case of the speaker it's not essential to what he is doing to segregate so he is simply applying his personal rules to other people.

Sallying - did you read my post? Prayer rooms (rooms where Muslims go and pray) on campus often (but not always) have separate areas/entrances for men and women.

They also often have posters up advertising talks and events, hence why I thought it could be a picture of a prayer room. The link only goes to a photograph, not an article.

Backonlybriefly

I'm not arguing for women only swimming sessions (they do actually exist though as do women only gyms)

My point/question is where do you stop?

If separating the sexes/genders for learning purposes is wrong then do we ban single sex schools?

Or should we not teach children sex ed in single sex classes so that children can feel comfortable asking questions?

Someone posted about single sex toilets, in some schools they have trialled co-ed bathrooms is this wrong? (even though bullying has allegedly been reduced)

I have been stopped from organising a dads and children's event (cooking a breakfast for mother's day) because it was sexist not to include the mothers (I had organised a separate type of event for them).

I think that we are generally arguing the same point.

Ah I see yes. I got the wrong end of the stick there. :)

Ok, I had totally missed that it was about the London School of Economics. This explains quite a bit as they get huge donations from very unsavoury characters, like the son of Gaddhafi more or less in exchange for a PhD title, they also got large donations from the Saudi regime.

Also Oxford had large donations from the Iranian regime, Cambridge from Saudi Arabia, Oman and Iran.

Still, I think the head from Universities UK showed a total lack of judgement and the more I think of it, I think that she should resign.

Yes Gosh I read your post. But the signs were clearly makeshift ones related to the activity advertised below.
But I am interested to know why separate entrances are necessary for prayer rooms. Can you advise me?

Signs in prayer rooms do tend to be of the makeshift variety, IME.

As to your question, because of the nature of Muslim prayer - bending down, prostrating, etc, men and women often prefer to pray separately, so the prayer space may be divided in two and each side may be accessed by a different entrance.

People may pray in a congregation, but often prayer rooms are just used for people to pray by themselves, so they just nip in and out.

Or there may be separate washing facilities for men and women to use prior to prayer. Separate facilities are preferred for this, as you need to wipe over your hair, so it's better to be somewhere where you can take your hijab off.