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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that it is outrageous even to think that universities should be able to segregate men and women

192 replies

LoveSewingBee · 14/12/2013 20:20

Sorry for the long title.

Link to BBC article

For once, I agree with Cameron.

OP posts:
Caitlin17 · 15/12/2013 00:39

Friday16 I'm finding it difficult to follow where you are going with all this. The issue over schools seems quite simple to me. It is lawful to have single sex schools.

The university is not catering to one sex only and it is outrageous a guest speaker should demand the sexes be segregated.

Your point about breaking up single sex / single race groups in Costa was ridiculous.

ShinyBlackNose · 15/12/2013 00:52

Op you are not being unreasonable. It is outrageous to think that anyone could have considered requiring the separation of men and women attending a public lecture in a public place.

When I heard a snippet of a radio debate about this topic earlier today certain callers agreed with the segregation whole heartedly. The callers seemed to think if men and women sit together at a lecture they will be so overcome with lust that they wouldn't be able to concentrate.

SolidGoldBrass · 15/12/2013 01:12

But isn't it the case that what the beardy bastards want is for private, ex-curricular, religious meetings to be segregated? How can this be dealt with legally without it leading to women-only groups (eg for DV survivors) also being closed down or penalised. I mean, the ethical argument for women-only groups/events is easy enough - members of the non-dominant class need safe spaces and all that - but how can the law be adapted to allow safe spaces but prevent exclusion?

redshifter · 15/12/2013 01:13

What if the meeting was renamed a religious meeting? Would that be ok?

What if they had a male area, a female area and a mixed sex area in the middle? Then women who wanted to sit with just women could do so and those who wanted to sit with males could make their own choice also.
Would people have a problem with this?

Genuine questions. I would like to know what people think.

Also, if the segregation was entirely voluntary, a man could sit on the female side and vice versa. How could this be illegal?

friday16 · 15/12/2013 01:18

Caitlin, if your benchmark for acceptability is legality, and therefore single sex schools are OK because they're legal, precisely what legislation do you think makes it illegal for a university to provide a room to an external speaker who is not affiliated with the university who then asks that attendees at a private event remain sexually segregated? Because so far as anyone knows, it's perfectly legal to do that. Private events certainly aren't subject to the provisions of the sex discrimination act, for any number of reasons.

My point about Costa is that it's being further claimed that it's wrong when there is voluntary segregation. Could you please explain how the police (it needs to be the police, because people want things to be illegal) should distinguish between voluntary segregation in Costa, where a table of men and a table of women are sat drinking coffee, and the nasty bad voluntary segregation that you want stamped out?

While we're in there, we might "people on the football pitches playing sexually segregated football", and how that differs. It happens in universities, too, you know.

Look, yet again: although I think racist, sexist and homophobic extremists are bad people with bad ideas, and that people who attend their meetings are bad people. Incidentally, it's not quite being explained why women who attend speeches by racist, sexist and homophobic preachers who enforce segregation are victims rather than participants, and there's a very interesting narrative in quite why they aren't being equally criticised for being there in the first place. It doesn't matter if the BNP segregate meetings by race or not, people who attend meetings of the BNP are still racists; why are women who attend segregated lectures by sexists seen as victims of the segregation, and not supporters of the event?

But this is a tiny problem. There are a handful of such meetings, and the people who are complaining about them are hardly doing so out of high-minded principle. The preachers in question are largely scum, their ideas loathsome and their audience largely enthusiastic about those ideas. There are no innocent, downtrodden women being segregated at these meetings: these are meetings by extremists, and everyone present knows the score before they turn up. The ideas should be confronted and challenged. Arguing the toss about the seating arrangements is the least of the issues. Either ignore them, or confront their repulsive ideas. If the audience at a speech by one of the several Hizb-ut-Tarir fronts were integrated, the speech would still be as nasty.

MistressDeeCee · 15/12/2013 01:20

YANBU. It is outrageous. This is the UK, can you imagine going to Islamic countries and trying to impose Christian ideals? The UK government bend over backwards to accommodate this kind of thing. So..if someone challenges this using UK equality laws - what then? If Islamic students are that fussed about this thing they should be studying in their own countries. Then again UK Unis etc court foreign students because they need the fees they pay, to keep going. The segregation stance is indefensible - I dont care how many longwinded explanations are put forward to defend it. Nowhere in history has segregation led to a good outcome. Its shameful that this is allowable, Im particularly surprised its at the LSE. & Im not British - just in case Im coming across as 'all things British only'

friday16 · 15/12/2013 01:28

How can this be dealt with legally without it leading to women-only groups (eg for DV survivors) also being closed down or penalised.

It can't. And for bonus points, the people who would be on the receiving end of nice, Guardian-style legislation to outlaw sexual discrimination in room bookings are the same people who would have a pretty bad reaction to women-only safe spaces. So if the university were forced to exclude beardy extremists and their strange views, the chances are that the same people (or their supporters) would make life very difficult for other, legitimate, groups.

So far as I can tell, the alleged problem is this.

An Islamic extremist, whose views on women, homosexuals, apostates and other predictable hot topics would be repulsive to most decent people books a room on campus.

People who want to attend his talk, presumably people who are supportive of his views on women, homosexuals, apostates and so on, are asked to remain sexual segregated.

Why do I give a shit about the seating arrangements at such a meeting? All the attendees are supporters of loathsome discriminatory politics, because decent people wouldn't be there in the first place. References to how "moderate Muslims" don't advocate such segregation is no more relevant than pointing out that the members of the local Glee club don't either; neither group is likely to want to attend anyway. Anyone who does attend has signed up for the discrimination.

So the end result is that a loathsome speaker with hideous ideas attracts an audience of supporters of those hideous ideas, and they segregate themselves by gender. So what? They knew the score when they turned up.

friday16 · 15/12/2013 01:37

If Islamic students are that fussed about this thing they should be studying in their own countries. Then again UK Unis etc court foreign students because they need the fees they pay, to keep going.

This isn't anything to do with foreign students. I will be willing to stand you a round of drinks next time you're in a student union building where this is a live issue if you can find more than 1% of attendees at an extremist meeting, or any of Yasmin A-B's "Muslim clothes vigilantes", who don't have British passports. This whole affair is about excessive fervour amongst home Muslim students. There is no suggestion that "Islamic Students", if by that you mean students from countries where Islam is the dominant religion, are attempting to impose, or indeed are fussed about, any of this. It's nothing to do with "foreign students" and their "fees", because all the people involved are home students.

See also, "who is it who is kicking up a fuss about having to examine patients of the opposite sex in medical schools?" Because it sure as hell isn't overseas students: at the fees they're paying, they can't afford to miss a moment's teaching.

ravenAK · 15/12/2013 01:55

I'm mostly with friday16 on this one. Well argued & articulate posts.

I think you could make an argument for saying that organisers of a meeting open to both male & female members of the public should not be allowed to enforce or even request segregated seating, but if it's an agreed thing amongst attendees then I can't see how you can effectively rule against it.

I get that we mix children up in the classroom, but the attendees of these events are adults. Different scenario entirely.

I don't think that gender segregation is at all a good thing, at a meeting, a lecture, a debate, or pretty much in any other event open to the public. So I wouldn't attend a meeting arranged by an organisation or individual whose discriminatory views were a key part of the discourse. But if I did subscribe to those views, presumably I'd prefer to sit separately from the opposite gender.

Uncomfortable though it is, I don't see how you can stop people from being told where to sit by, erm, telling them where to sit.

SolidGoldBrass · 15/12/2013 02:31

I think the key issue is whether or not these events are part of the curriculum. If they are events which students need to attend because attendance is necessary for the courses they are on, then the segregation is unacceptable, just as it would be unacceptable for someone to demand that passengers on a bus are segregated - you don't own the bus, other people are under no obligation to respect your superstitions. However, if these meetings are arranged by and for a social group on the campus, then it's up to them what they do (within reason - human sacrifice or defecating on the carpet or whatever in hired premises should be prohibited.)

MistressDeeCee · 15/12/2013 03:00

friday16 - since you addressed me: I am not about to condone segregation in any form or fashion. It is abhorrent to me. I don't care if it involves 5 people pushing for it, or 100. It is wrong, no good ever comes of segregation anywhere in history.

I am not suddenly going to like this situation just because nowadays it seems you are deemed anti-Islam simply because you feel a particular practice is wrong; similarly its blithely assumed that if you dislike a particular situation or practice, then clearly you can't possibly have the wherewithal to know 1 size does not fit all, & what is perpetuated by some in the name of Islam is not necessarily perpetuated by all.

Now in this instance - for me, those students enacting segregation are wrong. There are some practices, laws in my home country that I doubt would be acceptable here. However I would not expect them to be - I am not in my home country and if certain 'home' ways were that important to me - then, I certainly wouldn't be here. Added to that I don't care what people do at home or in their own social and religious groups. But I DO care when its at an institution such as the LSE.

Sadly its a subject many will tiptoe around for fear of causing offence, or appearing to be non-pc, or being flamed on Mumsnet. None of which I could care less about. My view is that segregation is wrong. Along with everybody else I am perfectly entitled to my view regarding a Post put up in Mumsnet.

I'm generally not interested in targetting/1-1 screen convos. I've seen they can too often descend into a goady mess and the subject of the original post becomes buried in the mire.

redshifter · 15/12/2013 03:16

MistressDeeCee. I understand your point but saying this - If Islamic students are that fussed about this thing they should be studying in their own countries. - about British students is not very helpful in my opinion.

And as for - This is the UK, can you imagine going to Islamic countries and trying to impose Christian ideals? - I don't want the UK to be as prohibitve as some Islamic countries with regard to freedom of speech and expression thanks. Isn't that sort of the point?

MistressDeeCee · 15/12/2013 03:50

redshifter I appreciate that point may not sound very helpful to you - however it is how I feel about the practice of segregation.

It is in no way prohibitive to dis-allow the practice of segregation and I cannot see any basis for the justification of it. At all. I actually find it disengenious to bring forth a myriad of arguments (for want of a better word) to justify segregation.

If people are within their own religious/social groups and this is what they practice well then, that could be another debate. My point is - don't bring any form of segregation to the LSE/Universities.

On the other hand it could be the case that we should turn a blind eye, let them get on with it, its nobody's business. I do have a feeling this may be the general consensus however ignoring this sort of thing is wrong, imo.I am vaguely wondering whether there are single-sex universities in the UK...

ravenAK · 15/12/2013 04:21

But they aren't actually bringing any sort of segregation to the LSE/Universities, from what I understand - these are extracurricular, voluntary affairs presented by outside speakers.

I agree with SGB's earlier post re: it hinging on whether these events are part of the curriculum.

If so, then it's not on that a student has to attend as part of their course & then has to sit with his/her own gender group - fair enough, down with that sort of thing!

But if you have a visiting speaker offering a non-curriculum talk, & 50 men & 50 women have freely chosen to attend the event & spend their own time listening to what that speaker has to say, & they are sitting on opposite sides of the room to hear it, & none of those 100 people wants to change this arrangement - well, how exactly do you resolve that?

OK, for me, if I walked in & saw that seating arrangement, it would immediately flag up that I was unlikely to be in sympathy with many of this group's views. & there's a definite argument for no-one present being allowed to tell me I couldn't join the gentlemen if I so chose.

I'm just not convinced that legislation can effectively march up to those 100 adults who know exactly where they want to sit & announce: 'Right you lot. New seating plan. Boy-girl, boy-girl.' as if they're a naughty year 8 class.

MistressDeeCee · 15/12/2013 06:23

The events are taking place at the LSE. I don't believe they are in line with the education ethos of the LSE/university education here. Its inappropriate and sends out a dubious message.

But still - if its that people want to be segregated and that's absolutely fine, its their right and their choice, then this was clearly a non-issue in the 1st place hence, who am I to dissent

GoshAnneGorilla · 15/12/2013 06:32

Just some thoughts on this.

Islamic societies, like any other uni group do not get to invite anyone they wish to speak, if a proposed speaker is deemed to contravene university policies, they will not be allowed to speak and this happened only recently. Likewise certain organisations are banned on campus.

The event that sparked the segregation issue was a debate held at UCL bebetween atheists and Muslims (so again, not a hotbed of bearded extremists saying terrible things).

This event had men only seating on one side, women only seating on the other side with mixed seating in the middle.

However, three men took it upon themselves to protest against the segregated seating by sitting in the women's section and objected when they were asked to move (obviously this is not at all male entitlement and the Muslim women should've felt grateful for the men wanting to liberate them). The fall out from this has lead to the UK university guidelines and the current debate.

In my experience, a high proportion of Islamic society events, particularly the social ones tend to be either self segregated (so not officially allocated areas), or parallel events are held for men and women. Btw, the busiest time of year for Islamic societies is Ramadan, when they hold evening prayer sessions and iftars (meals to break the fast) which are often open to all, again not really acts of bearded extremism.

So I think segregation bans would be very hard to police and they absolutely would be used as an excuse by certain groups (MRA's, racists) for there to be no women only groups, no women of colour only groups, etc.

Eebahgum · 15/12/2013 06:38

From what I can see, most people are arguing the same debate from two sides. The issue is freedom of choice. Of course we are not going to expect single sex groups in costa coffee to mix with the opposite sex, but neither are we going to tell a husband and wife they must sit at separate tables. I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that this debate is public knowledge because someone had a problem with it and went to the press. If everyone at the event was happy with single sex seating how would we even know about it. An adult should be able to choose where to sit. If they choose to sit in a single sex group there is not a problem. If they are made to sit in a single sex group when they would like to sit elsewhere there is a problem. Children have decisions made for them by responsible adults (usually parents) and the same rule can apply. Girl's and boy's schools exist so people can choose to educate their children that way if they want to. But the vast majority of parents choose not to and also have freedom of choice to send their child to a mixed sex school.

Eebahgum · 15/12/2013 06:49

Thanks for the detail goshannegorilla. I'd wrongly assumed the debate involved a woman being told she couldn't sit with a male friend. Now, although I believe the men involved had the right to choose to sit in the women only section, this is at odds with the right of the women to choose where to sit. So I see its not as straightforward as saying everyone can do what they like.

ravenAK · 15/12/2013 06:55

I definitely don't think it's a non-issue! Or absolutely fine that anyone in the C21st century is choosing segregation. Agree completely it's not in line with the modern University ethos.

But Cameron willy-waving about how 'Universities should not allow this' does rather raise the question of how, precisely, you un-allow it, without descending into farce, & more importantly, perhaps blocking (eg) women's groups set up to support specific issues & needs.

It's just today's pointless soundbite - completely impractical. He'll be after banning the Interwebs again next week Wink.

joben · 15/12/2013 08:14

is anyone going to respond to Friday's point about women only spaces being appropriate for rape survivors/domestic violence survivors at a seminar where this is the topic of discussion or is everyone going to assume that the only scenario where this may be requested is from Islamic extremists?

I am generally against segregation on the basis of supposed religious doctrine, but I also know that women who have been 'conditioned' to believe they cannot speak up/make a contribution to a debate in a mixed gender space will be alienated from discussion/education if they are not allowed to have women only spaces. Unfortunately bigoted attitudes do not change over night or through legislation, and women themselves may (as usual) be the prime losers if Universities insist on mixed audiences for all events.

Ubik1 · 15/12/2013 09:44

What about if I want to go to this talk with a male friend and sit with them?

If a speaker prescribes in advance that men and women should sit seperately -then that is wrong. It is nonsense.

Women in this country battled fir their rights. It is only 100 years ago that they were allowed to attend lectures at all.

Ubik1 · 15/12/2013 09:58

Also these are lectures by invited speakers -so they may be part of the lecture or debate or ...sorry...'talk' but they may be the sort if thing your tutor says oh 'so and do us coming to talk about his position on goats -if you gave time you should go...

If men and women automatically segregate then I doubt university is going to insist they sit boy, girl, boy ,girl

But Seperate entrances for a 'talk' ? Give me a break

The many Muslim parents at our school cope fine well without segregation for school shows/events. Everyone sits together and has a fine old time. This is normal! I believe cannot allow extreme Muslims to dictate where I can sit if I want to hear them speak. What about the Muslim women who want to sit where they damn well like? What about the women fir whom university represents some liberation? As usual it seems the women should just suck it up so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of a male speaker.

I'm actually shocked that some posters are supporting this..

Knottyknitter · 15/12/2013 11:35

I was at university about 15 years ago.

There was a (very old) society which functioned much as an old fashioned all-male drinking/charity fundraising club. Women had always been excluded, and said organisation had its students union registration and by extension ability to hire university or union rooms or equipment stopped. This was before I was at the university, but it still ran as a popular enterprise amongst a certain type of male student. If I remember rightly, they were all very posh, very white and very mysogynistic. They had to be posh though, to have the mummy and daddy funding to rent town buildings at full market rate.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/12/2013 11:46

I would suggest that inviting women only was ok if the purpose of the event required it.

If I ran a chess club I could say I only wanted people there who play chess.

If I were making a film about say slavery in the US I would expect to be able to specify black actors for certain roles and white actors for others.

If I ran a class related to pregnancy then yes I could specify women only.

There are situations where the color, gender or skill are themselves significant to the purpose of the event.

But then I can't say "no black chess players" because the color isn't relevant to the chess playing. Nor is deciding where the audience sit relevant to someone giving a lecture/speech.

friday16 · 15/12/2013 11:49

but they may be the sort if thing your tutor says oh 'so and do us coming to talk about his position on goats -if you gave time you should go...

They really aren't. These events are nothing to do with the academic life of the university.

Let's lay out the issues, because there seems to be huge confusion here.

In the manner of a sea shanty, you can imagine a chorus in which I sing "I don't approve of any of these people because they are fascist, bigoted extremists whom no-one decent should associate with, and the presence of these ideas in this country is a massive problem which should be confronted wherever it arises" in between each paragraph, to save me the effort of ritual condemnation every sentence, yes?

Y A-B are posters here are conflating two problems.

The first is that a very small number of extremists in, particularly, London universities are haranguing what me might call "visible Muslims" and demanding that they be more fundamentalist. In the manner of the "Muslim Patrol" they are approaching female students in lectures and making demands of them about dress and "mixing". No-one, repeat, no-one has any doubt that this is completely unacceptable, and universities can, will and do take disciplinary action.

The second is that ISOC-affiliated campus associations, and others, are holding meetings on campuses which they want to be sexual segregated. The speakers at these events are firebrand radicals who challenge the limits of "conducive to the public good" visas. They want space on campus either because they are, in fact, campus associations, or because the spurious credibility of the event happening at a university is attractive to them. The provision of these rooms is the subject of this debate,

People who are talking about "their countries" and "foreign students" and "I wouldn't go there and..." are talking out of ignorance. Neither of these problems are associated with overseas students. The student organisations involved are populated almost exclusively by second and third generation British Muslims for whom their parents' and grandparents' assimilation is a step too far and therefore they want to adopt a more "authentic" (and I can't stress how scare those scare-quotes are) Islam than the "compromised" (ditto) version their parents and grandparents practice. Students from Wahhabi-influenced countries rarely come to the UK and those that do are mostly very pleased to escape the constraints of their home countries and in many cases move away from those religious barriers and refuse to be bound by them. And of course, those that have, or come from families with, strong objections to Western decadence don't come to the UK to study anyway. This is a British problem, made in Britain, with most of the actors being British. Just as campus Trots of yore were fonder of communism than people who actually lived under it, the noisy Islamists all have British passports.

Put aside the "Muslim Patrol" type bigots. They're not a new problem, as anyone who's every been around a Christian Union and had to deal with biblical literalist entryists will attest; many campus CUs are now very much dominated by fundamentalists. If they get out of line they will be disciplined and/or arrested, and they are a tiny, tiny problem. There are occasional rows on my campus about alcohol in SU events, for example, but they are resolved very quickly with little or no compromise. Unlike at one school no-one is suggesting that non-Muslims should modify their behaviour, nor that a self-appointed group of hardliners should be able to intimidate moderates.

The issue of people wanting to rent rooms is the big one. Pace whoever said upthread that organisations that breach university policies can't obtain rooms, many universities (I'm thinking particularly of UCL, which is the centre of a lot of these problems) take free-speech very seriously. The idea that universities should pre-screen speakers is anathema to what a university is, and unless the university has clear and immediate reason to believe that violence is going to ensue, it can be argued that universities should stay out of the issue. Gender segregation is extremely unpleasant, and if it results in violence should not be permitted; however, no university would or should have a problem with renting a room to a DV survivor group, a rape survivor group, a Lesbian support group or, indeed, the women's hockey team. STEM departments, particularly the T and the E, have semi-official women's groups, too, and again no-one seriously suggests they shouldn't.

So we're left with the problem of University-affiliated clubs and societies using their right to book rooms, and then suggesting, offering or imposing gender segregation on the audience. The audience is largely, of course, supportive: why would people who are not supporters of fundamentalist Wahhabi Islam be attending a meeting on the topic? This all slightly smacks of the patronising protection of innocent young Muslim women who need big strong white people to stand up for them: who exactly is it who is going to these meetings and then finding to their horror and distaste that sexual segregation is in force? How many in the audience don't worship at least weekly in a mosque with precisely the same precepts?

As I said at the outset, I think the whole situation is deeply dispiriting, and the speakers involved are obnoxious, violent and bigoted. But I don't think much to Nigel Farage, either, and the gap from "I would not attend a speech, nor would I want to associate with anyone who does" and "these people should be banned" is a wide one. The victims of the segregation largely don't exist or aren't very sympathetic characters (who are the women who want to attend meetings by fascist bigots but whose rights of free-association at those meetings need to be defended?), the unintended consequences of a policy of gender integration for campus room bookings are significant (someone upthread mentioned Mens Rights Activists: there are enough tossers on campus who might use challenges under such rules as a weapon against women that it cannot be discounted as a risk) and the problem isn't that big to start with.

Cameron's grandstanding. There's a whiff of racism in the air. There aren't any actual victims. The problem isn't large. Leaving well alone is the best policy, and the Universities UK proposal was pretty decent.

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