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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that it is outrageous even to think that universities should be able to segregate men and women

192 replies

LoveSewingBee · 14/12/2013 20:20

Sorry for the long title.

Link to BBC article

For once, I agree with Cameron.

OP posts:
BrickorCleat · 14/12/2013 22:32

If someone's religion is at odds with the law than let them take it up with god because I'm not interested in bending the law to suit them.

backonly for attorney general.

Well said.

BackOnlyBriefly · 14/12/2013 22:34

It's worth considering why this entire debate is framed in terms of Islam.

This came up because of an actual incident which led to guidelines which seemed to make matters worse. You'll have to ask the Muslim speaker in question why he chose to make it an issue that day.

Do you think in the interest of free speech we should allow women to be segregated or not.

specialsubject · 14/12/2013 22:35

utterly abhorrent. These extremists are doing so much harm to the perception of Islam.

if they want somewhere with Sharia law, there are plenty of places. We should offer to pay their airfare if they leave their passports.

ParcelFancy · 14/12/2013 22:39

Anyway, how is this even "the debate"?

WTF?

In the 1930s novel Gaudy Night about Oxford, Sayers has one of her characters mention "the woman question" - to be shot down with the retort, ""Surely it isn't still a question."

How can we be in 2013 and there be a question?

friday16 · 14/12/2013 22:39

If someone's religion is at odds with the law than let them take it up with god because I'm not interested in bending the law to suit them.

An argument which would have more force if there were a law being broken in any of these cases. The debate only arrises because it isn't illegal.

Many synagogues have sexually segregated seating, separated by a Mechitza. Do you think (a) that that is illegal (b) that that should be illegal (c) something else?

friday16 · 14/12/2013 22:40

if they want somewhere with Sharia law, there are plenty of places. We should offer to pay their airfare if they leave their passports.

Are you going to throw Jews out as well? That might have, well, resonances.

ParcelFancy · 14/12/2013 22:43

I'm not keen on the segregated synagogue either.

I'm prepared to look at things which only occur during active worship, which stop as soon as you walk out of the place of worship, essentially as part of the ritual, slightly differently from things which continue into every day life.

But I'm still not keen.

ParcelFancy · 14/12/2013 22:44

In fact, if it's only some but not all synagogues which have segregation, I'm really very unimpressed indeed, as it suggests it's not a religious requirement even during worship.

harticus · 14/12/2013 22:48

The Al Madinah free school in Derby was closed down partly for its insistence in separating genders in class and canteen.
Girls were made to sit at the back of the class.

Gove has just rubber stamped 6 new Islamic free schools.

If we allow religion to play such a substantial role in primary and secondary education then is it really surprising that people have expectations of having their beliefs accommodated at a tertiary level?

All education should be entirely secular.

SilverApples · 14/12/2013 22:49

I think that one of the differences is that Judaism does not actively seek converts, unlike Christianity and Islam. So the imposition of Sharia law is seen as more of a threat, how would it impact on non-Muslims.
How would you feel having your Christmas party in Brick Lane, and a festive glass?
How much disruption did the N London eruv cause, and what was it's impact on non-Jewish, or non-Orthodox Jews? Have you even heard of it?

SilverApples · 14/12/2013 22:50

Apologies for the rogue apostrophe. Alcohol has been taken. Xmas Grin

friday16 · 14/12/2013 23:04

The Al Madinah free school in Derby was closed down partly for its insistence in separating genders in class and canteen.

It hasn't been closed down, although it only seems a matter of time.

This new discovery that sexual segregation in schools is illegal is going to come as a surprise to all those single-sex schools, especially to those on shared sites with some shared buildings.

friday16 · 14/12/2013 23:05

In fact, if it's only some but not all synagogues which have segregation, I'm really very unimpressed indeed, as it suggests it's not a religious requirement even during worship.

Hot news: there are differences of doctrine between denominations in the same broad religion.

Ubik1 · 14/12/2013 23:07

I really dislike the argumebt that x,y,z do it - DP why complain when someone else does it.

If you are Muslim/Jewish/Christian and you go to a place of worship you expect to conform to some customs even if they are medieval enough to segregate men and women.

When you go to university and decide to go to an e tea curricular 'talk' you should be able to sit with your male pal. You may even have had a couple of drinks. And be wearing a short skirt. You may decide to kiss your girlfriend and hold her hand.

Because this is a university which welcomes everyone and treats them equally.

ParcelFancy · 14/12/2013 23:12

Hotter news: still unimpressed.

As with my own deeply divided childhood religion, seeing which bits different branches highlight and their specific interpretations, tells you reyther a lot about them - and more about the people who actively chose those branches.

edamsavestheday · 14/12/2013 23:12

friday, I thought the CofE had moved on women bishops and is closer to agreement on the issue? Do you think it's still as bad as when the last vote was lost?

And yes, I know about the US, but the fact we have a woman Anglican bishop in the British Isles is A Good Thing. Let's hope there are plenty more to come.

I think there is a difference between segregation in a place of worship and in the public realm. I'd rather there was no 'women at the back of the room' anywhere, tbh, but when it escapes from a house of worship into the street, the lecture theatre, or any other public place it is time to say 'enough' very loudly.

I believe there are Muslim women who are pointing out that it is wrong that some mosques do not allow women across the threshold, btw.

yellowGiraffe8 · 14/12/2013 23:15

Yanbu

BackOnlyBriefly · 14/12/2013 23:16

I'm not sure what the arguments were for single-sex schools, but I think we all know they were not the same reason Al Madinah free school was putting girls at the back.

harticus · 14/12/2013 23:34

not the same reason Al Madinah free school was putting girls at the back

Yup.
Or compelling female staff to wear headscarves.
Hardly comparable to a handful of selective single sex grammars in the shires .....

Has anyone asked Malala Yousafzai what she thinks of all this? I wonder if she will sit happily and demurely at the back because she's a girly?

MadAsFish · 15/12/2013 00:05

All education should be entirely secular.

Welcome to France.

runs away

MadAsFish · 15/12/2013 00:06

(and yes, I know we have religious schools as well, but our government schools are very, very strict about the laïque thing)

friday16 · 15/12/2013 00:14

friday, I thought the CofE had moved on women bishops and is closer to agreement on the issue? Do you think it's still as bad as when the last vote was lost?

Well, let's consider the sort of people the General Synod of the C of E has in it today. Who's out there preaching fire and brimstone to encourage countries which still criminalise homosexuality to keep it that way? Step forward, Andrea Minichiello Williams, founder of Christian Concern and member of synod for the Diocese of Chichester, who said this week that "They hate the line of homosexuality being linked to pedophilia. They try to cut that off, so you can’t speak about it, So I say to you in Jamaica: Speak about it. Speak about it.” See here for the grim details.

That deafening silence you can hear is other members of the General Synod of the Church of England being absolutely supine about this issue, especially as GAFCON have issued a similarly fire and brimstone response to Pilling. The CofE's synod is a bunch of homophobic bigots and people who are relaxed about homophobia, so they'll continue to be silent about this sort of shit for fear of upsetting Africa.

The CofE claims to be "moving forward" on women bishops. It "moves forward" by doing fuck all while promising reform one day. Instead of kicking up a fuss about the cranky behaviour of a few obnoxious headbangers renting rooms in universities (who, to reiterate, I think are obnoxious nutters) Cameron could threaten to have nothing to do with the CofE until it sorted out its position on equal marriage and equal appointment to the house of bishops. But he'd prefer to put the boot in on a handful of fringe nutters who don't matter, rather than deal with institutional sexism and homophobia in the established church.

friday16 · 15/12/2013 00:22

not the same reason Al Madinah free school was putting girls at the back Yup. Or compelling female staff to wear headscarves. Hardly comparable to a handful of selective single sex grammars in the shires .....

Seriously? The Al Madinah school has 400 pupils, nearly fifty of whom have left in the past three weeks.

Meanwhile, every city has a massive estate of non-selective single sex state schools. It's not remotely "a handful of selective single sex grammars in the shires". Pick a random London borough. Hackney, you say? Clapton Girl's Academy. Where do the chattering classes congregate? Islington. Ah yes: Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, Highbury Fields (both nominally non-religious) and Mount Carmel Girls (RC). Single sex education is wildly popular and provided by the state on a scale which causes a failing 400-place school in Derby to be entirely insignificant.

friday16 · 15/12/2013 00:24

Has anyone asked Malala Yousafzai what she thinks of all this?

You mean Malala Yousafzai who attends Edgbaston High School for Girls, a single-sex school in Birmingham, or some other one who is all co-ed and shit?

Earningsthread · 15/12/2013 00:35

I am not aware of any form of organised religion that does not discriminate against women, to a greater or lesser extent. In my view all education at every level should be secular and should not pander to lunatics.