to be saddened by DDs' nursery's approach to 'stranger danger'

[seafoodudon]

Genuinely not sure about this one. I received an email from nursery yesterday informing me that this year Santa would only drop presents off at the Christmas party and wouldn't stay to talk to the children. This is because the nursery feel they cannot encourage the children to speak to a stranger. My reaction is that this is sad/ridiculous and counter-intuitive as:
a) to follow their logic they are saying it's ok to accept presents from a stranger but not speak to them?!
and b) I hate the trope that it's not acceptable for children to speak to strangers. Surely we should be explaining that it's not ok for them to go off with a stranger. Personally, I think it's nice to be encouraging children to have a little bit of independence from a really early age - e.g. I would always encourage my 2 year old to hand over the money for her magazine, or hand her books to the librarian to be checked out. It's just impossible to function in society without speaking to strangers and I don't understand why this rule is imposed on small children.
HOWEVER, DH thinks I am being totally U about this and that it's a reasonable stance for nursery to take (and more generally that children should not speak to strangers).
I'm interested in i) whether anyone else has come across this issue with their child's nursery/school/playgroup and Santa, and ii) AIBU?

That's crazy!!yanbu!

No, that's bonkers.

I think its a shame to teach children to be afraid of people. No harm in talking about being sensible and wary of people offering to take them somewhere of course. But children need to know that other people are basically nice and will help them if they need.

YANBU, it's stupid.

If children are terrified of speaking to strangers, what will they do if they actually get lost and need help?

Yanbu.

There's a big difference between speaking to someone who is introduced to them in a safe environment (ie Santa at nursery in front of staff and possibly parents) and them wandering 93C and talking to a stranger on their own and being lured away by them.

Political correctness and health and safety has gone absolutely crazy.

93c?!! Off!

i) No I haven't come across this before and ii) YANBU!

Absolutely ridiculous for all the reasons you have outlined and I'd be speaking to the nursery about it.

I think I'd feel saddened by the Santa edict in your place. He's hardly a 'typical' stranger, in any case as indicated by the red hat, cotton wool beard etc.

My son is only one, so I haven't really had to deal with the concept of stranger danger yet - he's currently wildly confiding and extrovert with strangers. I know I will need to deal with it in future. I do appreciate the need for teaching a child about boundaries etc, especially as my parents' laxness about this meant I was sexually abused as a ten year old.

it is a fact that statistically children are at most danger from people in their family and people that are known to them.
tell that to your DH - and think about the more shocking incidents of recent years.
all this 'stranger danger' is pushed on children so much, until they are scared of everyone and unable to make any judgements for themselves.
as you say it would be impossible to function in society without talking to "strangers".
so YANBU

That's ridiculous. Santa isn't a stranger, he is a guest at nursery. Do they never have any other visitors at nursery (the fire brigade, a police officer, petting farm visit)?

It's utterly ridiculous.

Centring protection on "stranger danger" is iffy anyhow (as risk isn't just with strangers). But even if it was this is wrong, because it is always OK for DC to talk to people when their parents/carers give permission.

Does this mean that the setting would never invite in, say, a parent to talk about their job? Or let the DC talk to someone showing them round if they went on a trip out?

It is totally stupid!

My DC where convinced the man who travelled on the same bus as us was a 'friend' because we saw him every day.

This is the same man who had sat next to my then 10 year old GodDaughter and stroked her inner thigh.

I have made it clear that he is not a friend, he just happens to be on the bus and is in fact a dangerous man!

Santa is safe though!

Mad. What nursery child is going to be out on their own encountering random Santas? They are with adults and he was vetted for the job with a CRB and is not going to be alone with them anyway.

That sounds completely ridiculous and OTT! He's a guest in the nursery, hardly some random man approaching them at the school gates with presents!

DS and I were out walking once and a very, elderly man walked alongside us as he was walking in the same direction, just back from shop for his morning newspaper, and said hello, and asked DS if he out for a nice walk too, and I encouraged DS to answer. I don't want him to think he mustn't talk to ANYONE! But I would also explain that it's not okay to walk off with anyone you don't know. I also encourage DS to answer if the guard on the train says hello, what's your name? for eg. There's a difference between making children scared of everyone to understanding that it's okay to say hello to certain people they don't know but not to go anywhere with them.

It strikes me as a policy devised by someone with a little bit of child protection knowledge but no ability to think clearly or critically, and certainly not enough knowledge to come up with a sensible position.

It's a very silly position indeed. For one thing, there's a big, big difference between talking to 'strangers' at nursery or when you're with your parents and talking to them all on your own without supervision from a trusted adult. Children are perfectly capable of learning that the latter case is dangerous but that it's absolutely fine to play peekaboo with the old lady at the next table in the cafe while you're having lunch with your mum (obviously where she's up for the game), or to talk to the student volunteer in your reception class. In fact, it's very important that they can recognise the difference.

Thanks for the replies - DH was beginning to make me feel like I was being a highly irresponsible parent. We have very different attitudes to risk in general though, which we (usually) manage to shrug off.

Yellowcake, I am so sorry about your experience. I am not in any way belittling the potential dangers that children can face from adults (either strangers or known), but just pondering on whether the line of not letting children speak to strangers is really the best approach of minimizing danger to them.

Ok, as I feel somewhat vindicated - can I pose a follow up question? My initial reaction was to send an email to the nursery management to express my surprise/concern over this policy - DH obviously not in support. I should make very clear here that I am very very happy with the level of care the nursery provides to my 2 DDs (both there two half days a week and have a fab time - lots of activities, cuddles and care and some very on the ball staff) - so I definitely definitely do not want to make a thing of this. I'm sure (?!) it is a head office policy, and not through our specific nursery, which makes me think it would be ok to voice concern to HO. However, as it's not a big deal, I don't think the girls will suffer from not being able to speak to Santa, perhaps I should just let it lie?

I thought that "stranger danger" was no longer the message we were supposed to teach anyway, because (as other posters have pointed out) its very easy for people to convince youngsters that they are not "strangers".

The message to teach (or so other threads on here have concluded) is that there are good adults and bad adults, and a good adult would never ask you go to go anywhere with them or take anything from them, even if they know you or your carer, unless your carer has told you themselves that that is what will happen.

The other advice I've been told is to tell children is that if they are lost or frightened and they can't find their carer, the safest person to find is another mummy with children, and they will look after you until you're safe.

Words fail me! YANBU you have the balance right. Our Dcs must be able to become independent free thinkers. All kids need to learn some street smarts which includes learning to risk assess their own safety, not learning some rigid rules about who is and is not a stranger. True independence is the best gift we can give our dc. As far as in aware Santa Claus is not given to wandering unsupervised throughout the streets looking for children to molest.

Calamitously - yes absolutely.

Further, who's 2 year old is going to be out on their own having to make those decisions anyway? My position is to first teach children to be polite (so responding politely when someone asks you a question), and as you go to assert that they must never go off with someone they don't know/assert boundaries about where they can and can't go. So by the time they are old enough to have a bit of real independence - whether that's playing out with friends on the street, nipping to the shop, or walking home from school, they have the knowledge and understanding to engage with strangers appropriate, but stay safe.

Perhaps I'm being naive.

seafood it might be best to 'let it lie' to be honest

Seafood maybe speak to other parents about it as well to see if there's a general consensus? The nursery staff sound fab so may well agree with you? Definitely worth a gentle query?

I find it hard explaining to dd who is four about strangers, everywhere we go she tries to talk to literally anybody who will listen.

I have told her that its ok to speak to people if we are with her but that she must never go off with anybody she doesn't know. Tried to have a basic chat about strangers but it all went wrong and she kept wanting to "play the game where I can't get in your car but I do because I want sweets"

We have tried to explain what to do if she gets lost and told her about the magic five (people who you can ask for help if lost) but she still doesn't quite get it.

I think its a shame to include Santa in the stranger danger thing, its in a supervised environment and shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks, OP. I'm not going to let it make me massively overprotective with my son.

In your position, I probably would express my reservations in an email or letter, while making it plain I was very happy with the nursery in general. They can pass on to head office. Your branch may think it's quite mad too.

One thing that occurs to me as a possible mitigating factor is whether the nursery needs to have Santa CRB checked or anything before he actually has contact with the children? I know nothing about nursery regulations as my toddler is with a childminder. Santa does come to the local toddler group, but he's the vicar in a deeply unconvincing beard...

Santa is not safe - no one can be guaranteed to be safe. That's why what we should teach children is when to trust their feelings and judgement about suspect behaviour, how to avoid particular risks (eg avoid accepting an unsolicited lift from a stranger) and what kinds of strangers are most likely to be safe when you need help - so I tell my DC if they are lost in a shopping centre etc to ask a mum with a buggy to help them. None of that ties in with "don't talk to strangers" which doesn't make sense at all.

As others have said it's total bollocks and woolly thinking to ban santa for being a stranger. Th context is more important - this santa is in a relatively safe environment, vetted and supervised so he's much safer than many kids' own relatives.

Yellow - yes a friend asked the same thing re CRB. On one hand this shouldn't be an issue as there would never need to be any alone time and it's a one-off (I'm pretty sure that the rule with CRB is it needs to be done for anyone regularly in the same setting with children - although there was that furore over authors needing CRB to do readings in schools, which I suppose is similar). However, I don't think it can be a CRB thing as this wasn't mentioned on the letter - it states 'we are no longer able to take responsibility to say that it is OK to talk to a stranger'.

I think I would speak to the nursery staff because the problem is that they're getting the wrong end of the stick about what 'stranger danger' is and passing that on to the children. It sounds like the nursery need to buy in some good quality child protection training so that they can actually come up with a coherent and sensible policy. Poor and illogical child protection policy actually makes children less safe.